Poll on control race tyres. yes/no? [Archive]

cowpoos

23rd May 2009, 18:08

Kickaha

23rd May 2009, 18:12

Okay...this is to see what people think about the control tyre debate.
Re post #239 onwards (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=99321&page=8)

So just vote in the above pole...see what the opinion is.

What poll (note correct spelling you illiterate pie monster) you plonker, I think you left something out :bleh:

cowpoos

23rd May 2009, 18:15

What poll (note correct spelling you illiterate pie monster) you plonker, I think you left something out :bleh:
there you bran muffin robber!!

Tony.OK

23rd May 2009, 18:32

I voted no to SBK....................however I'd be prepared to change my mind if there was for example a max cost stated to each supplier.
For example there is a very big difference between certain brands even at sponsored prices, Dunlop N-tecs are a good example, nearly $200 different than other brands.

Also there would be an increase in required testing and susp changes for those not already using "supplied" brand. That adds cost for development.

Teambwr47

23rd May 2009, 18:42

NO in 600's.....:laugh:

cowpoos

23rd May 2009, 18:43

NO in 600's.....:laugh:
Hmmm....I suppose it works for the greenies...shouting to get thier own way!! something your not telling us Brian?

Shaun P

23rd May 2009, 18:54

I thought sidecars only used 1 set of tyres in a season using teeth as currency to buy them

Shaun P

23rd May 2009, 18:58

It seems there is alot more options for 600ss tyres, so would be good to keep them filtering through to street riders from racers and more people have set ups with the importers in that class.

Kickaha

23rd May 2009, 19:07

I thought sidecars only used 1 set of tyres in a season using teeth as currency to buy them

Some teams do

Others use a full set of 3 at each round at about $500 per tyre

scrivy

23rd May 2009, 19:34

Some teams do

Others use a full set of 3 at each round at about $500 per tyre
Well yeah Kick, but you forgot to say they also sit to pee, and are also gay pie eating homos............:bleh: They wouldn't have the balls to run on the canvas!!!

CHOPPA

23rd May 2009, 20:43

Australian Superstock 1000cc rules.... Dunlop 209gp. $499 per set, only 2 sets to be used for 2 qualifying and 3 races, only $1000 per weekend and its a proven success.

Tony.OK

23rd May 2009, 21:32

Australian Superstock 1000cc rules.... Dunlop 209gp. $499 per set, only 2 sets to be used for 2 qualifying and 3 races, only $1000 per weekend and its a proven success.

My previous point exactly..............over $100 dearer per set than what I'm paying now, so struggling already, it could suddenly become even more expensive. :doh:

JayRacer37

23rd May 2009, 21:36

No.

Because - Compitetion is what makes our bikes/tyres/suspension/life better.

Why take away the thing that makes our tyres better? The same Idea would be to say that (for example) only Ducati could race in the superbike championship. At that point, why would Honda/Suzuki/Yamaha/Kawasaki bother to spend money to develop, to get better? At the same time, why would Ducati bother to improve? They only have to race themself. And at that point everything stagnates.

JayRacer37

23rd May 2009, 21:41

Australian Superstock 1000cc rules.... Dunlop 209gp. $499 per set, only 2 sets to be used for 2 qualifying and 3 races, only $1000 per weekend and its a proven success.

Yeah, there ya go. How can it save money when the good majority of people would be able to get a comparible tyre for a better price? It's not hard to get some support on tyre costs - almost any wholesaler will help out someone who comes to them and says "I'm going to do the/some of the national championships and I will advertise your brand." And if you can offer more than that, they may well help further. As another option to reduce tyre use, say 2 sets DOT tyres for qual and races. You can run what you want before then so if you damage tyres working on setup you arn't killing your race tyres, and it keeps costs down. It means there no point running new tyres all through practice as your going to be racing on older tyres at some point. And it means you should have to buy no more than 3 sets for the whole meeting and that would leave you with tyres for practice at the enxt round and/or a tyre that is road leagal so you can sell it on after and recoop a bit more money.

CHOPPA

23rd May 2009, 21:43

My previous point exactly..............over $100 dearer per set than what I'm paying now, so struggling already, it could suddenly become even more expensive. :doh:

On second thoughts I think the tyres im running are an advantage so im changing my mind...

Tony.OK

23rd May 2009, 21:49

On second thoughts I think the tyres im running are an advantage so im changing my mind...

Nah your just more talented and have a cool bike bro:laugh:

cowpoos

23rd May 2009, 21:49

On second thoughts I think the tyres im running are an advantage so im changing my mind...
lol...I was waiting for someone to make a point along those lines...

Why are your tyres an advantage?

CHOPPA

23rd May 2009, 21:54

lol...I was waiting for someone to make a point along those lines...

Why are your tyres an advantage?

Ive used a bunch of different brands already and for longevity, grip, size and profile of tyres Dunlop is the best imo...

AndrewStroud

24th May 2009, 11:59

Okay...this is to see what people think about the control tyre debate.
Re post #239 onwards (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=99321&page=8)

So just vote in the above poll...see what the opinion is.

Poll is Multi choice...you can select more than one option...and if you feel like it...post why you choose what you did or didin't??

Great idea Ryan,
I voted yes though it's a little tricky to vote when we don't know what the deal is.
eg There maybe nothing offered worth considering or for some funny reason a NZ wholesaler may manage to get the mothership (ie Pirelli Italy, Dunlop UK, Michelin France ...etc) involved and keen on the idea.. then you don't know what could come of it. Whats say they could offer tyres at a price that is the same as they could be sold on for when used, effectively giving racers a tyre bill of $0. They can provide tyres that work really well and last for ages.....sponsor the class and provide prize money. ?????
Optimistic I know. But if you don't ask you don't know.
At present some riders in S/B can easily use 10 new soft compound tyres in a meeting if they chose to. It makes it hard for up and coming riders.
I suggested the idea because it could well benefit 90% of the field, - probably at the expense of us sponsored riders. However it could well be one of the factors that could turn the series around.
You can see it is not just a yes / no vote. You need to add a box that asks the question, Should it be put up for tender?

cowpoos

24th May 2009, 12:13

You can see it is not just a yes / no vote. You need to add a box that asks the question, Should it be put up for tender?

Yep...Your right. The intention of the poll was to find if there was enough people who supported the potential of the idea. Having the link to your first post about it, in the other thread...I would have hoped people would have read through the information to balance their own opinion.

Alot of people would have read posts and just agreed and not replied or posted anything in support or not in support. So by getting a idea of how many people are for or against..can give people interested in perusing this further a reason to or not too.

I think [personally] that it has alot of merit...but it would still depend on what could be worked out with suppliers...if no one what to step up to the plate with a good deal...then I doubt anyone will be happy about it...then it just won't wash with the racers so...it would be a resounding no!

Shaun

24th May 2009, 13:49

Two Smoker

24th May 2009, 15:20

I agree with Shaun. Its the amount of tyres that have to be limited to a weekend, rather than just having a single control tyre. NZ only has 4 million people in it remember...

Its not really a problem in 600's as I see it...

speedracerjimmy

24th May 2009, 15:38

Just a thought on this idea

Some riders only like what they like as tyres RE Simon Crafer for example

So how about a control of amount used only, and then the riders get to choose which brand they would like to race on?

NZ is very small, and to limit the brand of tyre the rider wants to use, will only be causing an off spin to our recession at the moment I think.

I thiink Re the SB class, the tyre amount that is used needs to be contolled more, as Andrew has said, some riders can really chew through there tyres

I know when I raced, I went out in EVERY test session with the latest best spec tyre I could use, so I could always be going as fast as I possibly could, ( And that cost ME a lot of money)

I agree with shaun.
nz is pretty small and having a control tyre will hurt the wholesaler,retailer and most likely the riders as well.For example the riders out there that say run pirelli tyres generally run the brand of leathers and helmet etc that this wholesaler brings in because they usually do some kind of sponsership package for the rider.but if say pirelli missed out on being the tyre for the series they might get pissed and pull all there sponsership meaning those guys that where getting the cheap leathers and helmets get nothing.Also there market for tyres would be limited to only club racers who then would have to pay more for these tyres because they wouldnt bring in so many etc.
I would like to see the amount of tyres limited tho.I reckon for sbk and 600 it should be two sets which have to do qualifying and the two races.

JayRacer37

24th May 2009, 18:35

Just a thought on this idea

Some riders only like what they like as tyres RE Simon Crafer for example

So how about a control of amount used only, and then the riders get to choose which brand they would like to race on?

NZ is very small, and to limit the brand of tyre the rider wants to use, will only be causing an off spin to our recession at the moment I think.

I thiink Re the SB class, the tyre amount that is used needs to be contolled more, as Andrew has said, some riders can really chew through there tyres

I know when I raced, I went out in EVERY test session with the latest best spec tyre I could use, so I could always be going as fast as I possibly could, ( And that cost ME a lot of money)

I agree with Shaun. Its the amount of tyres that have to be limited to a weekend, rather than just having a single control tyre. NZ only has 4 million people in it remember...

Its not really a problem in 600's as I see it...

I agree with shaun.
nz is pretty small and having a control tyre will hurt the wholesaler,retailer and most likely the riders as well.For example the riders out there that say run pirelli tyres generally run the brand of leathers and helmet etc that this wholesaler brings in because they usually do some kind of sponsership package for the rider.but if say pirelli missed out on being the tyre for the series they might get pissed and pull all there sponsership meaning those guys that where getting the cheap leathers and helmets get nothing.Also there market for tyres would be limited to only club racers who then would have to pay more for these tyres because they wouldnt bring in so many etc.
I would like to see the amount of tyres limited tho.I reckon for sbk and 600 it should be two sets which have to do qualifying and the two races.

Yep,

Agree with all of the above 100%. Limit the amount of tyres, not the type.

DEATH_INC.

24th May 2009, 18:44

Yep,

Agree with all of the above 100%. Limit the amount of tyres, not the type.
Me too, when I can afford to race I run whatever I can get my hands on with the cash I have....if I ever get to a national, it'll be the same, so I don't need to be told I must spend $XXX on certain tyres too....
Besides, this is nz, I really don't see it changing anything.

Kiwi Graham

24th May 2009, 20:05

Me too, Limit the numbers not the type, brand or compound.

Maido

24th May 2009, 21:04

Yep,

Agree with all of the above 100%. Limit the amount of tyres, not the type.

^^ this, can i cange my vote now?

Shaun P

24th May 2009, 21:55

Yep,

Agree with all of the above 100%. Limit the amount of tyres, not the type.

What about a price cap for a set of tyres, with guidelines to being commercially available with a resonable commitment from competitors?

JayRacer37

24th May 2009, 22:57

What about a price cap for a set of tyres, with guidelines to being commercially available with a resonable commitment from competitors?

How could it work? Do you mean to limit the amount that racers can spend on a pair of tyres? I'm not really sure I understand what you mean?

Shaun P

24th May 2009, 23:09

How could it work? Do you mean to limit the amount that racers can spend on a pair of tyres? I'm not really sure I understand what you mean?

Dunno just putting some ideas out there really. How about a max rrp price cap for a set of tyres? so if say a certain brand is over a $1000 dollars retail, it could be thought to be too expensive, of course the cheaper racers can get them for the better.

JayRacer37

24th May 2009, 23:25

Dunno just putting some ideas out there really. How about a max rrp price cap for a set of tyres? so if say a certain brand is over a $1000 dollars retail, it could be thought to be too expensive, of course the cheaper racers can get them for the better.

Gives the advantage back to people who have even some help on tyres as theoritically if they could provide recipts they could get better tyres for under the cap. As I've said before, I don't think anyone who races or buys tyres for racing pays full flaming retail, be they using other racers cast offs or getting them supplied for less.

cowpoos

25th May 2009, 07:55

with guidelines to being commercially available with a resonable commitment from competitors?

There are guidlines in place at the momement for this in Supersport. the tyres have to be on sale to the general public. [does it say in New Zealand??]
Their were a few pairs of tyres that are not obtainable in NZ, seen floating around During the nats.

JayRacer37

25th May 2009, 08:48

There are guidlines in place at the momement for this in Supersport. the tyres have to be on sale to the general public. [does it say in New Zealand??]
Their were a few pairs of tyres that are not obtainable in NZ, seen floating around During the nats.

Not certain if it says in NZ, but I'm sure it would have been implied in there somewhere.

Really? What tyres were those Poo's?

codgyoleracer

25th May 2009, 11:01

AndrewStroud

25th May 2009, 12:45

Kind of ironic really, If the "chosen supplier" of the control tyre ends up winning the contract , they then have to A) supply tyres to the race industry at a "competitve price" - but then B) End up with a bunch of them on the market at seasons end )both new & used) , which steals actual retail road tyre sales from their own brand).....

Still like the idea of a treaded control concept though for the 600ss, pro-twin, & 150ss/250 twins classes.

Glen Williams

Hi Glen, I don't think selling on used street tyres would bother the supplier too much as it puts their brand out to street riders who may discover how good their tyres are. Then they'll want to tell their mates and also buy some more themselves.

Treaded tyres work fine on a Superbike as well - like World 1000 Superstock and I think their races are longer than ours.

Re price cap idea; Not sure how that would work. I suppose each supplier could come up with a price that they'd be prepared to sell tyres to racers for. Any amounts over a certain figure could rule their brand out. I'm not sure if suppliers are in a position to sell direct to all racers though.
Re two sets for qualifying and two races; It's a good step in the right direction. Though riders could still use soft / expensive tyres which may not be much good for practise at the following meeting, - it does though remove the option of using 3 new sets for qual & 2 races

Robert Taylor

25th May 2009, 19:29

Hi Glen, I don't think selling on used street tyres would bother the supplier too much as it puts their brand out to street riders who may discover how good their tyres are. Then they'll want to tell their mates and also buy some more themselves.

Treaded tyres work fine on a Superbike as well - like World 1000 Superstock and I think their races are longer than ours.

Re price cap idea; Not sure how that would work. I suppose each supplier could come up with a price that they'd be prepared to sell tyres to racers for. Any amounts over a certain figure could rule their brand out. I'm not sure if suppliers are in a position to sell direct to all racers though.
Re two sets for qualifying and two races; It's a good step in the right direction. Though riders could still use soft / expensive tyres which may not be much good for practise at the following meeting, - it does though remove the option of using 3 new sets for qual & 2 races

Im with Glen on that one Andrew. Its no different to Glen selling a whole load of greenhouses at very very minimal margin and / or actually sponsoring a few and then they are put out for sale by the users, effectively competing with his new sales. The market is in reality so small that there is more likely loss of potential revenue to the primary supplier.
Its a bit like lobby groups wanting money from the Government ( any Government! ) Where does the money come from in the first place and its very definitely not a bottomless pit.

cowpoos

25th May 2009, 19:40

Im with Glen on that one Andrew. Its no different to Glen selling a whole load of greenhouses at very very minimal margin and / or actually sponsoring a few and then they are put out for sale by the users, effectively competing with his new sales. The market is in reality so small that there is more likely loss of potential revenue to the primary supplier.
Its a bit like lobby groups wanting money from the Government ( any Government! ) Where does the money come from in the first place and its very definitely not a bottomless pit.
can we just assume this?? or would it not hurt to try?

Two Smoker

25th May 2009, 19:43

Treaded tyres work fine on a Superbike as well - like World 1000 Superstock and I think their races are longer than ours.

This could be a possible good idea. I imagine it quite hard to sell alot of second hand slicks...

Mishy

27th May 2009, 14:10

O.k, so we are suggesting price capping tyres. Ask yourselves this - who sets prices on tyres ? Many of you out there will be buying them through a Retail outlet which is getting assistance from an importer - so how do you force a retailer to limit a price ?
Also, from an importers point of view, i agree with Glen. There has to be some way of making money from selling the product, and injecting cheap used product back into the market that will remove any chance of selling tyres off the back of your racing efforts (largely done at very little margin) isn't appealing at all.
As far as selling used race tyres to the general public for road use - i'm totally opposed to it for many reasons, some safety, and some commercial.

Most of the tyre importers put a lot into racers already, and for little profit.
I agree with limiting the number of tyres per meeting, but couldn't really get interested in a control tyre, and would actively discourage any assisted riders from selling used race tyres back into the raod market - why would i help anyone who udercuts me with the used product ?