Three Strikes Protest Run, 5 May

[Gearup]

If only that was what the biker 'community' wanted too...

Surely when you cut through the crap it is. I hate being ripped off and I'm bloody sure that's what others hate as well.

[Gearup]

I suppose in my humble opinion, there was always going to be a certain amount of division, same as there is with the likes of Ulysses, MNZ and the wider biker community.

My personal opinion was that both organizations were applying varied methods to achieve the common goal. MAG was based on action, BRONZ had a political approach. I think at the end of the day, if the issues were big and loud enough, ALL bikers would have supported it no matter what side of the fence they were on.

Certain people may criticize me for what I say now, but it was clear that BRONZ were working away at their thing but the problem was nobody knew (certainly in Auckland as far as I could see) what 'their thing' was. MAG were doing all their backroom work but, certainly in the early days, had more of an information flow going. Whether you agreed or disagreed with MAG you always knew whet they were doing. BRONZ in Auckland were almost invisible.

As for BRONZ Wellington, well, a different story. There were lines of communications open, there seemed to be much more information flow and they made things happen.

In my view, everything came to a head when the MSL was announced. The threads on that showed some deep division within the biker community even outside of MAG and BRONZ. However, as I said (to my cost as has transpired), that whole debate should have been the catalyst for bikers to come together and have their voice heard.

You could support the MSL or not, but either way there was an angle where the politicians would be held to account for their actions. My tiny mind could see an opportunity for a level of solidarity there, but it was not to be.

So as for ‘divided support’, well, those two words fit very well to describe how BRONZ and MAG countered each other when working towards the same thing.

I have been called all sorts of names by various people for even suggesting this in the past, but I don’t really give a fuck. All I want is the best outcome for the biker community regardless of who is who and what is what.

Yep, it's a bit like a company being run by a committee and having different methods of planning, action, reporting and analysis.

[Gearup]

Well, there is also the National Forum of motorcycle Clubs that MAG and BRONZ both contribute too, my placement on the MSAC, and other initiatives that have come and gone over the years.............
Should we state they are also taking away support from BRONZ? For many years there was nothing to get upset about, seems this govt has made us all wake up a bit (and that includes me)

I can see why MAG came to be, but personally I agree somewhat with your point of view about splitting the pool, its small enough as it is.
But like political parties, we cant force people to choose what to vote for.........or who to join.
People like to choose what organisations they join, and will leave behind ones that they think are ineffective and I can see how many people felt we (BRONZ) did not do enough post BIKEOI to take our gains further...
I like to think we had an effect on reducing the levy rise somewhat but...no way to prove that is there?
And Les mason was the one who started that ball rolling..... is it fair to blame him for the apathy that descended after the event?
God know all BRONZ groups tried to keep the momentum up but it seemed to me everyone had shot their load.
The second protest we ran, in Feb 2010 fizzled out, only 80 people from the unions bothered coming despite the huge sums spent by CTU to publicize it... apathy, a nationwide disease.
360 odd Biker came too, some even from Auckland but nothing like we saw for Nov 09

Wellington BRONZ in its current incarnation is not much older than MAG is, and I want to think we are doing good work, and with our membership numbers fast approaching 90 financial members and gaining momentum I guess that's indicative that we are gaining more support.....

Being placed on the MSAC has had some (the lesser informed) people say I sold out...
There is no way to please em all mate, trust me I gave up trying and got on with ensuring our members get the full story as much as I possibly can and we created the BRONZ Federation to try unite the nationwide splinter groups.

Thanks for that, we may get something done after all.

[Maha]

Yep, it's a bit like a company being run by a committee and having different methods of planning, action, reporting and analysis.

Yes it is, and a large percentage of first time companies fail within a short space of time due to lack of 'direction'....the one word you ommitted.

[bogan]

I wasn't going to post again in this thread, but this seems like a reasonably constructive discussion, so I'll change my mind for as long as it stays that way.

Support is a tricky issue, you could blame; groups for dividing it, riders for not providing it, groups for not gathering support. But there is one commonality in blaming any of them, it gets you nowhere.
To get somewhere you gotta put in the effort, I think (but I'm biased here) MAG's structure/forum makes it easy for members to get help with getting things done, but the person who suggests it can't just expect others to do it all. Maybe that is costing us support? Maybe there isn't support? Maybe we have to do more to earn it first? I dunno.

[Gearup]

Yes it is, and a large percentage of first time companies fail within a short space of time due to lack of 'direction'....the one word you ommitted.

Nope, direction is covered under planning and action. Most first time companies fail due to lack of customers and funding.

[Fatt Max]

[SIZE="1"]MAG's structure/forum makes it easy for members to get help with getting things done, but the person who suggests it can't just expect others to do it all. Maybe that is costing us support? Maybe there isn't support? Maybe we have to do more to earn it first? I dunno.

Exactly sir, well put.

And direction, direction is the key to success of any organisation no matter what the ultimate aim is. That direction has to be focused, inspring, present and positive.

MAG has great people driving it, always did but I believe that ultimate direction was missing.

This thread is about the Three Strikes Protest. I know that it will rise again and you will make it happen as a group. That is because you will forge your own direction as a group and not rely on the vision of individuals to guide a cause that is for the good of all bikers.

I wish you all the luck in the world, your collective success with BRONZ and others is a goal that I will support in the making and revel in the result of,

Good onya people

[Maha]

Would it be fair to say (honest question here) that mags approach to action from here on in will be IT based?
I ask this because most (if not all) the ''doers'' are no longer within.
There are some very smart brain types as in yourself John/Dom/Steve/Neil etc but you guys are not really the ''get out there and fuck 'em up'' type eh? surely even you would agree with that John?

[Voltaire]

I wasn't going to post again in this thread, but this seems like a reasonably constructive discussion, so I'll change my mind for as long as it stays that way.

Support is a tricky issue, you could blame; groups for dividing it, riders for not providing it, groups for not gathering support. But there is one commonality in blaming any of them, it gets you nowhere.
To get somewhere you gotta put in the effort, I think (but I'm biased here) MAG's structure/forum makes it easy for members to get help with getting things done, but the person who suggests it can't just expect others to do it all. Maybe that is costing us support? Maybe there isn't support? Maybe we have to do more to earn it first? I dunno.

I used to be involved in the kids fundraising and it was always the same people who did all the work, some like doing it, others feel obligated to do it and some let the others do it. I've watched BRONZ and MAG from the sidelines and just can't get excited about meetings, committtees and protesting.( I do enough of that at the office).
I did however go to Welly for the 09 protest...and the meeting at the Yacht Club with Nick......then I lost interest.....jeez it hard being middle aged and middle New Zealand....

[MSTRS:Me]

Surely when you cut through the crap it is. I hate being ripped off and I'm bloody sure that's what others hate as well.

So where are they and their support for those that are trying to drive the issue/s?

There's plenty on here who have only ever knocked the efforts of others.
There are quite a few who were at the coalface (so to speak) and threw their hands up and left because there was no support. I'd even go so far as to suggest that maybe they didn't get the internal support they needed to continue?

All the bitching about the issues and what is/isn't being done to counter them is a sure sign that bikers aren't happy. So where is their support?

[flyingcrocodile46]

And that is true. However, no matter how one perceives it both organisations have YOUR interests at heart, and do the best they can with the support they have :-)

I have no doubt that is also true. The representatives of any such organisation ideally need to level headed, un-emotive, properly understand their resources, base aims and expectations in reality and it would be advantageous if they are independently wealthy and/or have no family/social responsibilities that demand any attention.

TBH I am not altogether sure that the Bronz wern't up to the task. I think it was more a matter of a small (but overly e-vocal) percentage of this forums members weighing their personal opinions (and idealism) too heavily and having too great an expectation of what a bikers right organisation should be aiming to achieve. Though again, I have no doubt that their motivation is pure.

[Gearup]

So where are they and their support for those that are trying to drive the issue/s?

There's plenty on here who have only ever knocked the efforts of others.
There are quite a few who were at the coalface (so to speak) and threw their hands up and left because there was no support. I'd even go so far as to suggest that maybe they didn't get the internal support they needed to continue?

All the bitching about the issues and what is/isn't being done to counter them is a sure sign that bikers aren't happy. So where is their support?

Perhaps they're feeling a bit worn out by it all currently although this time 'round, the postings have cleared the air a bit.

I for one am feeling like things could be on the go again. Only time and turnouts etc will tell.

[flyingcrocodile46]

My Mother died the day of the AGM.

My sympathies.

I wasn't going to post again in this thread, but this seems like a reasonably constructive discussion, so I'll change my mind for as long as it stays that way.

Support is a tricky issue, you could blame; groups for dividing it, riders for not providing it, groups for not gathering support. But there is one commonality in blaming any of them, it gets you nowhere.
To get somewhere you gotta put in the effort, I think (but I'm biased here) MAG's structure/forum makes it easy for members to get help with getting things done, but the person who suggests it can't just expect others to do it all. Maybe that is costing us support? Maybe there isn't support? Maybe we have to do more to earn it first? I dunno.

Your response evidences that you have a lot to offer bikers as a active proponent. Why not merge with and motivate (but with balance) BRONZ. It is most often personalities behind failures to align pathways to principal objectives (especially when so many goals are shared). Neither you nor Les (or Mark for that matter) appear to be the sorts who would easily let such differences prevent a positive outcome.

[carver]

I think all those other protest rides probably pissed off the Govt and made em want to hit us, so i BLAME QUASI!

He organized the Cheesecutter protest ride, the MFSC tried to ruin it and save you all, but we failed!

[flyingcrocodile46]

Les mason was the one who started that ball rolling..... is it fair to blame him for the apathy that descended after the event?
God know all BRONZ groups tried to keep the momentum up but it seemed to me everyone had shot their load.
The second protest we ran, in Feb 2010 fizzled out, only 80 people from the unions bothered coming despite the huge sums spent by CTU to publicize it... apathy, a nationwide disease.

Almost nailed in one blow. Les did a great job when it mattered most. Hat's off to him and a big thank you.

Whilst I think you are largely correct in your summary I don't believe your description of diminishing support is correctly described as "apathy". I believe it should be more correctly interpreted as direction (or a poll) from the people whom the two groups claim to represent and that in their enthusiasm, well intentioned people have simply failed to read the writing on the wall.

[flyingcrocodile46]

I used to be involved in the kids fundraising and it was always the same people who did all the work, some like doing it, others feel obligated to do it and some let the others do it. I've watched BRONZ and MAG from the sidelines and just can't get excited about meetings, committtees and protesting.( I do enough of that at the office).
I did however go to Welly for the 09 protest...and the meeting at the Yacht Club with Nick......then I lost interest.....jeez it hard being middle aged and middle New Zealand....

Heh! Another hammer hand hits the nail home. I went too. Just fucked up and overshot before I realised and had to ride all the way back from Dunedin to get there in time

[bogan]

Your response evidences that you have a lot to offer bikers as a active proponent. Why not merge with and motivate (but with balance) BRONZ. It is most often personalities behind failures to align pathways to principal objectives (especially when so many goals are shared). Neither you nor Les (or Mark for that matter) appear to be the sorts who would easily let such differences prevent a positive outcome.

you mean me individually, or a 'patchover'? Either way I think there is more to be gained by sticking with MAG.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Would it be fair to say (honest question here) that mags approach to action from here on in will be IT based?
I ask this because most (if not all) the ''doers'' are no longer within.
There are some very smart brain types as in yourself John/Dom/Steve/Neil etc but you guys are not really the ''get out there and fuck 'em up'' type eh? surely even you would agree with that John?

You have raised a very good point. I personally do not think that it is a good idea for committee members (especially the top dogs) to have an active profile online. There is a place for these forums as a tool for polls as to firming up on goal selections (from a pre-selected list of options) and monitoring for ideas for committe members to consider and discuss OFFLINE but otherwise I see reliance on forums such as this for direction and discussion as something to be considered with a grain or two of salt. There are far too few people who have far too much to say for themselves (yes me too at times) and a real lack of balance results. The average biker is not well represented by the views and opinions of a few overly vocal well intentioned (but self important) individuals.

[flyingcrocodile46]

you mean me individually, or a 'patchover'? Either way I think there is more to be gained by sticking with MAG.

I meant you individually (and MAG as a collective) as well. I disagree with your choice but respect that it is yours to make.

I will end my contribution now as I have said all I have to say on the matter and see no sense in debating the issue further in support of my views as I have no desire to push my own barrow. If the load has merit others will push it along a pace or two... or not.

There are already far too many people pushing their own barrows here.

[Gearup]

You have raised a very good point. I personally do not think that it is a good idea for committee members (especially the top dogs) to have an active profile online. There is a place for these forums as a tool for polls as to firming up on goal selections (from a pre-selected list of options) and monitoring for ideas for committe members to consider and discuss OFFLINE but otherwise I see reliance on forums such as this for direction and discussion as something to be considered with a grain or two of salt. There are far too few people who have far too much to say for themselves (yes me too at times) and a real lack of balance results. The average biker is not well represented by the views and opinions of a few overly vocal well intentioned (but self important) individuals.

In the absence of direction from a committee and the clarification of the some issues, which has happened here, then the forum does represent the average biker.

Members are also customers so it's vital for them to have some type of feedback medium other than physical meetings.

They can read and they can also have their say if they want to. Some may just not choose to be so vocal as the ones who do it often here.