We're watching you, Mr Smith. Protest 27th June 2010

[Ixion]

Worked for me, to the extent that it answered the questions I wanted answered.

About 75 bikes, a few more people. But, they were the same 75 that have faithfully turned out for each event.

And that wasn't the demographic we were looking for (as I kept saying). The people we were hoping to reach, the hardmen, the wild geese, not associated with clubs or the internet, weren't there at all. And we did try to reach them , through channels that (I hope) most of you don't know about.

They responded with a big yawn. So, my take , is that the "heaps of dudes ready for action so long as it's aggressive and confrontational", that we keep being told about, don't actually exist. And the hard men , the men who would be up for disruptive action, have solved the ACC issue the easy way- they're just not registering their bikes. Sorted.

The people we see still protesting (and full respect to them) are polite, respectful, law abiding. Very few Harleys, lots of BMWs sort of thing.

But those are the sort of people that political systems ignore. Unless there are thousands of them, 70 turnout in mid winter, maybe 300 in summer. 500 at max even with massive promotion. That won't set fear into the hearts of Mr Smith or Mr Judge.

We cut the program short when we saw the turnout, wasn't going to work with those numbers, and they weren't people that would have been comfortable with it.

Not analysed all the feedback yet , but overwhelmingly, as expected it's in favour of legal, mostly peaceful. Not convinced myself that it really reflects motorcycling, but it's the only feedback we have, and the numbers are what the numbers are, BRONZ isn't in the business of telling people what they should think.

Which at least settles the internal issue within BRONZ. Pity, but as I sa the numbers are what the numbers are.

BRONZ represents motorcycling , not motorcyclists. So we can't just ask our membership what they think, or even the internet (cos, odd as it may seem, some people aren't into the net). Today we asked those people, the ones who aren't on the net, aren't in BRONZ , if they wanted in. They weren't interested.

Doesn't mean we give up, but its pretty clear the numbers aren't there for mass action. So, it's back to the drawing board.

Further opposition is going to have be based in those smoke filled rooms again, the stuff Mr Wobblyas talked about. (interestingly, haven't heard from him in a long time. Sign of a changing tide? )

Thanks to everyone who turned out.

[Ixion]

Because, as Les keeps telling us, BRONZ do not represent bikers, they (we, I spose as a member) represent motorcycling.
Now I for one have never been off road on a bike, never raced on a track, don't hoon across deserts or play motorcycle polo. I ride on the roads so by definition am only a minor concern for BRONZ. Suppose BRONZ is the equivalent of "Bike Rider TV", interested in all things two wheeled and motorised. But I'm not really. I'm interested in road bikes and the people who ride them on the road.
There is a not too subtle difference and no doubt many of us do both. But I'm less than interested in quad bike races and agility trails.

Are "motorcyclists looking for positive and assertive leadship" ? I don't think they are. After todays meeting, I stopped at the abr in Wiawera. (Nice bar). lady behind the abr rides a CB400. Was mildly interested in the protest, agreed that ACC was expensive, not interested in actually doing anything about. Looking for "positive and assertive leadership". Nope.

Moved on to Puhoi. Couple of dozen Harleys there (the people I was hoping might turn out for the meeting). Had a wee talk with them. They don't like paying $517 Who does, But they don't see it as a big deal, they're not looking for any action on it. Looking for "positive and assertive leadership" . Nope. They'd tell the positive and assertive leader to fuck off.

Biggest motorcycle club in the country, Ulysses, looking for "positive and assertive leadership" ? As in , follow the one perfect motorcyclist and all drive round in two wheeled cars. Definitely not.

Are the (large number of) dirt riders unhappy and looking for "positive and assertive leadership"? I'm not into that scene , but I don't think they are.

Should they be? Maybe. Should they all be beating themselves over the head and yelling "I am evil, I am unworthy, everything is my fault". No. Fuck off.

I think "positive and assertive leadership" is code speak for "beat up on bikers who don't kowtow to the one perfect motorcyclist and drive two wheeled cars; and grovel apologetically to Mr Smith". And I don't see any appetite within motorcycling for that.

I don't agree with what Mr Smith and ACC are doing. Nor does BRONZ. But the vast mass of NZ motorcyclists aren't too worried about it. We'll keep trying to persuade bikers that they should be worried about it. But not at the expense of treating them like shit.

(but please stop falling off so forkin' often, m'kay)

[Maha]

''I don't agree with what Mr Smith and ACC are doing. Nor does BRONZ. But the vast mass of NZ motorcyclists aren't too worried about it''.

It really does seem that way Les.
But we will crack on regardless.

Like you said in Wellington ''this is not the end, its the begining''.

Our last outing attracted 105 bikes, and to be honest, that was more than any of us expected.
United we stand, divided we.......well you know how it goes.

[Ixion]

''I don't agree with what Mr Smith and ACC are doing. Nor does BRONZ. But the vast mass of NZ motorcyclists aren't too worried about it''.

It really does seem that way Les.
But we will crack on regardless.

Like you said in Wellington ''this is not the end, its the begining''.

Our last outing attracted 105 bikes, and to be honest, that was more than any of us expected.
United we stand, divided we.......well you know how it goes.

My problem is that 105 and the 75 today were the same people. It's not like we're adding new blood with each meeting/ride. We're not reaching the rest, like the couple of dozen Harleys at Puhoi today. They just don't see a problem.

I don't think we're actually all that much divided , no more than bikers always are , (except for the one obvious permanently divided gentleman), in that the people who aren't fighting don't actually disagree with the campaign, they just don't see it as an issue that's important enough to get their time or attention.

Apathy, not opposition is the problem.

[Katman]

Apathy, not opposition is the problem.

No, lack of vision is the problem.

[NONONO]

My problem is that 105 and the 75 today were the same people. It's not like we're adding new blood with each meeting/ride. We're not reaching the rest, like the couple of dozen Harleys at Puhoi today. They just don't see a problem.

I don't think we're actually all that much divided , no more than bikers always are , (except for the one obvious permanently divided gentleman), in that the people who aren't fighting don't actually disagree with the campaign, they just don't see it as an issue that's important enough to get their time or attention.

Apathy, not opposition is the problem.

I fkin give up..
So this is what you meant by "The hard men"? Harley riders? They ride a Harley so they must be hard men?
Yknow what Les, that just about does it for me, book yourself into a clinic man, youre about done.
BRONZ can have my membership back and sorely missed I'm sure I'll be, not being a member of HOG and all.
You disrespectful SOB. Those guys who turned out today, who have turned out time and time again, politely or otherwise deserve better than BRONZ relying on "the hard men" pushing the cause.
Hard men, my arse!
Buying in to the "in the wind" branding does fck all for this fight. 125 or Rocket 111, all the same to me, but not it seems to you.
Fck it...
Done with BRONZ, until it gets it's head out of it's arse (or gets the arse off it's head).

[wysper]

I personally don't believe we can change this with motorcyclists protesting. We would need to be joined by many other groups. Unless the Govt sees that it will lose power or money. They won't give a shit. Doesn't matter how big the protest is or how many sigs on the petition. Unless it is going to cost those in power that power or money, they will do what they like. That is democracy for you. Possibly better than a dictatorship, possibly not. But it is the style of government we have.

Money talks.
Power talks.
Mr and Mrs Everyperson can talk.. but will be ignored.

Even the way the voting system is set up is set up to keep them in power. We have given up our ability to vote some one out for 'fairer representation'. I thought MMP would be better, I didn't realise how impossibly hard it is to vote someone out with MMP.

And as for Ixions comment about not falling off so often, wouldn't matter if there wasn't another single motorcycle accident again, that is not their agenda, in this case privatising acc is. And god knows what else after that. We have seen how they ignore stats that work against them and bend others to work for them.

However, I will still join peaceful protests, I will still make submissions, I will still vote against National. I believe I must try.

I will also still pay my registration. I have more to lose than $517.

[Beeza]

So you want people to turn up to an unknown location wearing balaclavas? I guess I will avoid this one thanks BRONZ.

Sounds anti-social to me and precisely the sort of crap to get reasonable motorcyclists with a worthy complaint hated by the wider public. I'll distance myself from these dumb yahoos of BRONZ.

[RiderInBlack]

I personally don't believe we can change this with motorcyclists protesting........
And as for Ixions (change that ta Katman, and ya be right, but the point is still true. RIB) comment about not falling off so often, wouldn't matter if there wasn't another single motorcycle accident again, that is not their agenda, in this case privatising acc is. And god knows what else after that. We have seen how they ignore stats that work against them and bend others to work for them.

Totally agree with ya there Wysper (bar the about small suggested Edit). The problem is ta get the idea across ta the masses. The loss of the Woodhouse Principle and the impending Privatisation of ACC is really what is at stack.
Ixon, don't judge all of Ulysses by the few that you know. The ones I ride with up in the Norf are quite a varied lot, and don't fit the mold ya trying ta label them all with (bit like bike riders as a whole).

[Ixion]

I fkin give up..
So this is what you meant by "The hard men"? Harley riders? They ride a Harley so they must be hard men?
Yknow what Les, that just about does it for me, book yourself into a clinic man, youre about done.
BRONZ can have my membership back and sorely missed I'm sure I'll be, not being a member of HOG and all.
You disrespectful SOB. Those guys who turned out today, who have turned out time and time again, politely or otherwise deserve better than BRONZ relying on "the hard men" pushing the cause.
Hard men, my arse!
Buying in to the "in the wind" branding does fck all for this fight. 125 or Rocket 111, all the same to me, but not it seems to you.
Fck it...
Done with BRONZ, until it gets it's head out of it's arse (or gets the arse off it's head).

I don't know if the 'hard men' ride Harleys. Certainly not all Harley riders would class as 'hard men'. Personally I am now fairly sure that the hard men don't actually exist.

Which is pretty much what the homonymic gentleman found earlier. But, we had to give them the opportunity to come forward if they were there. They didn't so we can ignore that approach in future.

But I do know that Harley riders form probably the biggest single group within motorcycling. They turned out in thousands for BIKEOI!. And haven't turned out again. If the ACC fight is one that involves motorcycling as a whole, then the opinions of the largest group in motorcycling can't be ignored. Even if those opinions are not those which you, or I, agree with.

Because, if we are to win, we must have the support of that group. And of many others, but Harleys are an easy one to identify. If we're not getting it (which we're not) then we (meaning me) need to find out why. That's not a matter of disrespecting those who have got the message and are supporting the cause. It's a matter of finding why a crucial part of our market isn't listening.

That 'finding out' is a bit tricky, because Harley riders are not majorily represented in BRONZ. Or here.But find out we must, and convince them that they should be fighting alongside us.

Which makes me start to think that the best approach may be education rather than protest. How can we show Harley riders (and scooter riders, another missing demographic) why they shouldn't be ignoring this.

(I'm probably including Harley type bikes as Harleys - the crusiers generally).

There are probably other big segments that aren't buying into the ACC fight. Harleys and scooters are two that I see. We need them aboard. Simple as that

[Ixion]

Totally agree with ya there Wysper (bar the about small suggested Edit). The problem is ta get the idea across ta the masses. The loss of the Woodhouse Principle and the impending Privatisation of ACC is really what is at stack.
Ixon, don't judge all of Ulysses by the few that you know. The ones I ride with up in the Norf are quite a varied lot, and don't fit the mold ya trying ta label them all with (bit like bike riders as a whole).

I'm sure you are right about Ulysses. And, I do not know very many. Some (most ? all maybe) of those I do are very nice people. Their riding style doesn't work for me, but that's neither here nor there.

I do know (well, I think I do ) that Ulysses the organisation is very opposed to any resistance to ACC. They were from the beginning (again, that's the organisation, not the members), But, back at the beginning, a lot of Ulyssians turned out to fight, and ignored the Ulysses head office message . So I think that the organisational message wasn't in sync with the membership.

But now, I don't think I'm seeing them, in any numbers So I don't know if that's because they , like the Harley guys, don't think it's worth the effort; or because they've agreed with head office that the increase is , if not a good thing, then at least a justifiable one.

Once again, we need Ulyssians and Harley riders , and everyone else. We've tried peaceful, we've tried lobbying, we've tried protest rides. The ACC don't seem interested in taking any notice of any of it. And now we've made an honest effort to engage with the "not so peacful " people - who turn out, I suspect, not to exist. So, where to now ?

The only thing they (and Mr Smith) did take notice of was sheer numbers. 7000 bikes frightened them. So, how do we roll out 2000 bikes in Auckland (that being about the proportion I guess ?) . What will make the Harley riders, and the Ulyssians, and the scooter riders, turn out as they did for BIKEOI!.

[MadDuck]

Certainly not all Harley riders would class as 'hard men'.

Really? You have finally worked this out?

But find out we must, and convince them that they should be fighting alongside us.

Maybe give them a bit more respect? Just a thought.

This Harley rider (i.e ME) is unimpressed with your reference to the type of people WE are just because of the brand of bike we happen to enjoy riding.......

[bogan]

The only thing they (and Mr Smith) did take notice of was sheer numbers. 7000 bikes frightened them. So, how do we roll out 2000 bikes in Auckland (that being about the proportion I guess ?) . What will make the Harley riders, and the Ulyssians, and the scooter riders, turn out as they did for BIKEOI!.

perhaps going to parliament helped too, is there likely to be another bikeoi similar time this year?

[Ixion]

Well we tried to get BIKEOI2 off the mark back in December. But it got no traction and withered away . (threads still on the forum, last post about 27th Dec I think) .I don't know if another attempt would fare any better, unless ACC come out with another rape attempt in October.

We have to be careful though, last time we turned up with 7000. If we only managed say 1000 this time, Mr Smith would claim that as a victory and a sign that we had lost support.

[bogan]

Well we tried to get BIKEOI2 off the mark back in December. But it got no traction and withered away . (threads still on the forum, last post about 27th Dec I think) .I don't know if another attempt would fare any better, unless ACC come out with another rape attempt in October.

We have to be careful though, last time we turned up with 7000. If we only managed say 1000 this time, Mr Smith would claim that as a victory and a sign that we had lost support.

over the summer holidays probably wasn't the best time for organising anything and so soon after the first one too. I reckon if you want big numbers again, another bikeoi is the way to go, no other action has even got 10% of the bikes we had there (iirc). And the way I see it if we don't turn up again at all, nick doesn't have to claim anything, its obvious he's won.

[Katman]

So, where to now ?

You seem blinkered by the idea of protest.

Perhaps it's time to address the manner in which motorcyclists conduct themselves.

Or is that just too hard?

[bogan]

You seem blinkered by the idea of protest.

Perhaps it's time to address the manner in which motorcyclists conduct themselves.

Or is that just too hard?

and that will reduce the levies how? certainly not before 2019 anyway

[Katman]

and that will reduce the levies how? certainly not before 2019 anyway

If you want the levies reduced then the means lie within our own hands.

[bogan]

If you want the levies reduced then the means lie within our own hands.

simple repetition does not constitute a rebuttal.

[Katman]

simple repetition does not constitute a rebuttal.

Perhaps you need to open your mind.