So now we know...

[steve_t]

I don't know where this is gonna get us really. The country voted at the last elections and not everyone voted for National. Given the populations divergence on political preference, I don't expect we're gonna get consensus here.
I do think it's too easy and myopic to oversimplify and say that John Key has no integrity because he's not keeping tax cuts. The reasons why have been spread over the last 5 pages

[MisterD]

If anyone's looking for a more amusing take on it, Jane Clifton's on form in the Dom Post.

I particularly liked this bit:

Fittingly for a Budget that was mostly Scrooge, it was balefully witnessed by the Ghost of Budgets Past, Sir Roger Douglas, and the Ghost of Budgets Future (he hopes), Labour's David Cunliffe.

Sir Roger, grey as a wraith, rose up and croaked out a Dickensian speech of warning about debt and fiscal cowardice, lacking only the clanking chains.

Mr Cunliffe, hopelessly overstimulated, made bellicose interjections - most of them miles off the immediate topic - all the way through the National speeches, rather like a drunk heckling a council meeting.

"The biggest lie in history!" he bellowed, then added, mystifyingly, "Leave it to our kids! Taking if off our kids!" before reverting to the handily all-purpose, "Shame!"

[Skyryder]

Because it wasn't clear until later that the previous government had almost bankrupted the country - at that point it became blatantly obvious that measures such as the full round of tax cuts were no longer affordable.

Affordibility was never the issue with the Nats. Key was going to borrow for the tax cuts come hell or high water. He claimed that the stimulus of the tax cuts to the economy would offset any negitive aspects of having to borrow money for them.

I suspect that the real reason English canned the cuts was on advice from Standard and Poors. The Nats sold the NZ public a 'pup' on tax cuts. And I might add it is too Labours shame that they too came to the party with their own 'dog.'

Skyryder

[Jantar]

Affordibility was never the issue with the Nats. Key was going to borrow for the tax cuts come hell or high water. ...

Wrong. National always promoted the proposed tax cuts on the basis of the economy as presented by Cullen et al, and reiterated time and time again, that no tax cuts would be funded through borrowing. It was Comrades Clark and Cullen who kept on claiming tha National would borrow to fund tax cuts.

[ynot slow]

Can't win really,my take is we continue borrowing and our higher interest rates attract offshore investing,hence the exchange rate goes up,no good for exporters and we are an exporting country.

We manage to get interest rates at good level,the overseas banks upgrade our credit rating,that appeals to financial institutions and our exchange rate goes up as a result.

[Skyryder]

Wrong. National always promoted the proposed tax cuts on the basis of the economy as presented by Cullen et al, and reiterated time and time again, that no tax cuts would be funded through borrowing. It was Comrades Clark and Cullen who kept on claiming tha National would borrow to fund tax cuts.

Hon JOHN KEY: I can assure the member that we are not borrowing $40 billion for tax cuts. What we are doing is borrow $40 billion over the next 3 years, over and above—



Despite his role at the time as National's associate transport spokesman, he did not disclose his shareholding.
When Mr Key was questioned on the issue this year he said his family trust had held 30,000 shares in the company, but had sold them on June 9 and June 12, 2003.
But Finance Minister Michael Cullen today released correspondence and share register information contradicting several of Mr Key's claims.
The information showed Mr Key, through his trust and under his own name, had owned 100,000 rather than 30,000 Tranz Rail shares.
Questioned on the issue before he was aware the information had been released, Mr Key said his shareholding ranged between 25,000 and 50,000 shares up until June 2003.
But when pressed on the issue he admitted there were more shares.
"Actually maybe 100,000 from memory, sometimes 50,000, sometimes 100,000, yep," he said.
"Yeah, sorry, there was 100,000 in total."

So you realy think Key was not going to borrow for his tax cuts. His word means nothing.

Further proof

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYKDbKbqR60







Skyryder

[ManDownUnder]

I got an ACC levy increase the bloody National Party has been waiting to drop on me for 9 years!!!!!!!

And then they have the nerve to orchestrate a global recession to get out of giving me my tax cuts... Jeez...

[ManDownUnder]

Hon JOHN KEY: I can assure the member that we are not borrowing $40 billion for tax cuts.

... and in not paying the tax cuts out... it seems he was true to his word...!

So you realy think Key was not going to borrow for his tax cuts. His word means nothing.

Skyryder

LOL - dude he's just done exactly that! What would Standard and Poor's reaction have been if tax cuts had been given?

And why do you think the tax cuts got pulled... there's the minor ACC "whoops... fuck - where'd that billion go" issue... oh and that global recession. Combine the two a lo - we have a great reason to say y'know... they might not be a good idea now - knowing what we know... which wasn't really disclosed by the previous grumblement.

[monkeymcbean]

Hmmm, removal of inefficiencies and waste more likely.

In hindsight the sequencing of events could have been a bit cleverer, as could the way state assets were split up. Separating Telecom's network from its retail business would have helped, ditto for rail and electricity assets.

Yes it could of been a bit cleverer good ole hindsight, but the country would be in more fininancial difficulties if it was not for the sale of some assets, and they were loss making liabitlities. Though Air New Zealand and Tranzrail are back in public hands at a huge ongoing cost....i think that was something to do with the Greens.

[steve_t]

I got an ACC levy increase the bloody National Party has been waiting to drop on me for 9 years!!!!!!!

And then they have the nerve to orchestrate a global recession to get out of giving me my tax cuts... Jeez...

Haha... National has the rest of the world in its pockets I think it's a global organisation called the Stonecutters and Obama is one of them! What other conspiracy theories can we drag out.
The ACC levy increase was due to Labour's $1.5 deficit in the non-earner account. A number it hid at election time. Why are non-earners claiming so much ACC??!! Is it all those people claiming ACC for a back injury while they're taking cash under the table for building houses and retaining walls?

[ManDownUnder]

The ACC levy increase was due to Labour's $1.5 deficit in the non-earner account. A number it hid at election time.

yeah but whats' $1,500,000,000 between friends... It'd beasy for Cullen to lose that kind of chump change wouldn't it?

... the bastard should be in prison.

[325rocket]

Nothing you have said come close as to why tax cuts won't work now that NZs in a recession when Key said that they would stimulate the economy when we were heading into one during the election.


Have a happy day.


Skyryder

so you agree Key was on to it suggesting tax cuts would work to stimulate the economy ?



325rocket

[Marmoot]

This whole debate/issue on the 2009 Budget has become a moot point well before it started.

Those who believes recession, economy, and National would support the Budget and applaud Bill English.

Those who vote for Labour would shun it, irrelevant to the logic behind the Budget; either at the abolished tax cuts, or at the borrowing for tax cut should it went ahead.

[spudchucka]

...how much a personal guarantee from John Key is worth.

Bet all you geniuses who voted for "the tax cut party" are feeling really smart now, huh?

Its just the natural cycle of NZ politics, Labour fuck things up and then National get in and have to clean up their mess and in doing so have to make heaps of cut backs to spending which pisses everyone off so they swing back to Labour who fuck it up all over again.

[rainman]

Its just the natural cycle of NZ politics, National fuck things up and then Labour get in and have to clean up their mess and in doing so have to reinstate heaps of spending that National cut back which pisses everyone off so they swing back to National who fuck it up all over again.

There, fixed that for you.

Sorry, that's me just having fun - as mentioned I'm not a diehard Labour supporter although clearly I'd prefer a left-leaning coalition with a strong Green influence. Maybe we should try that sometime?