Does MMP need a rethink?

**Motu** · 6th June 2009, 15:22

Originally Posted by idb

the party with the most votes can still miss out on winning the election...and it happened here.

Sometimes that can be a good thing.Same with MMP - a losing party can make a coalition with several smaller parties,and govern over the party that got more votes.Could of happened this last election.

You are lucky you can vote at all - if we ran this country my way there would be no voting.I would rule forever and all my family and good mates would have the best jobs.All voting systems suck.

**idb** · 6th June 2009, 15:33

Originally Posted by Motu

Sometimes that can be a good thing.Same with MMP - a losing party can make a coalition with several smaller parties,and govern over the party that got more votes.Could of happened this last election.

Yes but with the current system the ruling coalition will represent the majority of voters, this doesn't have to be the case in FPP.

**p.dath** · 6th June 2009, 15:44

Ideally we want the majority of those elected to represent us to have the power, as opposed to the largest minority (which is what happens with FPP).

If that needs to be done via coalition, then so be it.

We also want a balanced power scenario, so that a small majority can't hijack the decision making process. Unfortunately MMP can create this case where two parties split the vote, and a tiny third party gets the rest, and hence the decision making power.

We also want an effective parliament that can actually make laws. FPP always delivers this, sometimes MMP does but not always. However if the country is that closely polarised between two views then perhaps we shouldn't be making drastic changes.

Overall, I do support MMP. There are pro's and cons, as every political system has, but I think MMP delivers a good mix of benefits.

**Winston001** · 6th June 2009, 16:24

I prefer Single Transferable Vote STV but it is a complicated system. Used for Health Boards, it works but not every voter understands. I wouldn't now go back to FPP.

In Europe minority governments are formed where parties with less votes form a coalition which outvotes the most successful party. Eg Labour 56 MPs, National 50 + ACT 4 + Maori 6 + United 1 = Majority in the House. Its messy but does work. Hasn't happened here.

**Winston001** · 6th June 2009, 16:31

120 MPs more or less is only a distraction. Yes NZ could be governed by 20 MPs - but would you really want that?

Having 120 different voices in Parliament gives us open democracy. That's 120 individuals who can be contacted, pressured by journalists, appealed to, and who can influence policies. Less MPs means less democracy.

The money saved on a smaller Parliament is illusory. The big money is in social welfare spending, health and education. Billions and billions. That is where we need to be smarter.

**puddytat** · 6th June 2009, 16:36

Originally Posted by Motu

You are lucky you can vote at all - .

Never a truer word spoken....How long has it beem since we proles have had the vote? Wouldnt be much over a 100 years would it?
It could also be taken away from us again too....due to some other issue taking over & the implementation of martial law, or due to "National security "

**p.dath** · 6th June 2009, 16:37

Originally Posted by Winston001

120 MPs more or less is only a distraction. Yes NZ could be governed by 20 MPs - but would you really want that?

Having 120 different voices in Parliament gives us open democracy. That's 120 individuals who can be contacted, pressured by journalists, appealed to, and who can influence policies. Less MPs means less democracy.

The money saved on a smaller Parliament is illusory. The big money is in social welfare spending, health and education. Billions and billions. That is where we need to be smarter.

I'm suggesting that something more like 80 would probably be sufficient. The less people involved in the smaller steps of a decisions the faster things happen.

**puddytat** · 6th June 2009, 16:39

Originally Posted by Winston001

120 MPs more or less is only a distraction. Yes NZ could be governed by 20 MPs - but would you really want that?

Having 120 different voices in Parliament gives us open democracy. That's 120 individuals who can be contacted, pressured by journalists, appealed to, and who can influence policies. Less MPs means less democracy.

The money saved on a smaller Parliament is illusory. The big money is in social welfare spending, health and education. Billions and billions. That is where we need to be smarter.

Your on to it Fella...

**Winston001** · 6th June 2009, 17:20

Originally Posted by p.dath

I'm suggesting that something more like 80 would probably be sufficient. The less people involved in the smaller steps of a decisions the faster things happen.

I agree with you. However 80 or 120 doesn't really make much difference. In fact democracy is an awful system in the sense of trying to get anything done.

Anyone who has served on a committee for a club etc knows how hard it is to get agreement and action. I now refuse to do this - except I'm chairman of two organisations so am stuck with that.

The best political system is benevolent autocracy. That's where a small group of people with genuine concern for their fellow citizens run the country. A good example is....er....Sultan of Brunei....? Basically it just doesn't happen because small groups become corrupt over time.

**Elysium** · 6th June 2009, 17:34

A much simpler system would be a one party communist govenment that tells us what to do.....oh wait we just had that.

**Robert Taylor** · 6th June 2009, 18:38

Originally Posted by Elysium

A much simpler system would be a one party communist govenment that tells us what to do.....oh wait we just had that.

How about a one party right wing administration and work camps for unreformable socialists?

**Karl08** · 6th June 2009, 20:44

MMP... mmmmm two words spring to mind- Alamein Kopu.

Hang on there's more- United Future, list MPs who claim to speak for their local communities (regardless of how low they polled on election day), the Greens and the Maori Party being courted by the major parties; and having influence that is disproportionate to the communities they claim to represent, Winston Peters and his "baubles of office" speech.

One of the issues is that maybe your average voter does not fully understand how vote effectively under MMP. Talking to people at election time is quite eye opening- most of the ones I spoke to (a wide range of incomes, lifestyles etc) hadn't really thought too much about who and what they were voting for.

There needs to be a long hard look at how young voters are being educated about voting in the MMP world. Regardless of the system we have, or dream for- I for one, am glad I live in a country where I get to vote.

Rant over.

**oldrider** · 6th June 2009, 21:16

People are born Socialists and get brainwashed with "leftist" thinking by incompetent "State" school teachers!

As they grow up and start to see the real world they become educated by life and realise most workable solutions come from the right of politics.

By the time they reach full maturity of life (experienced) they are too old to pound any sense into the new brood of lefties clogging up the State education system!

Seriously, would any of you want that rabble in the Green party making all your personal life decisions for you?

Because that is what they "will do" if you give them half a chance!

Careless voting can cost us our individual freedom.

Not good for motorcyclists!

**xwhatsit** · 7th June 2009, 01:13

I had to laugh tonight as I came home from work after reading this thread earlier in the day. Parked on the side of the Manukau Rd in Epsom was a late-model VW Golf with the personalised plate: `MMPSUX'

EDIT: I lied, it was an Audi A3.

**fliplid** · 7th June 2009, 09:06

Originally Posted by xwhatsit

I had to laugh tonight as I came home from work after reading this thread earlier in the day. Parked on the side of the Manukau Rd in Epsom was a late-model VW Golf with the personalised plate: `MMPSUX'

EDIT: I lied, it was an Audi A3.

see that car quite a bit on the back road from drury to puke. being "ignorant" (of the local political system!), it took me a while to suss wtf it was referring to!