Just one at a timeOriginally Posted by jono035
I thought I thought that
Just one at a time
Lifes Just one big ride - buckle up or hang on
Unexpected Spanish inquisition
I wasn't trying to get into a leather versus textile argument as both materials have their good and bad points depending on the buyers requirements, I suspect you have not read my earlier post fully otherwise you would have realised that.
My intention was to clear up some of the myths associated with textile fabrics, in particular the widespread mis-usage of the brand name Cordura as an all encompassing term for textile garments, as many of these style garments out in the market use grossly inferior materials.
The abrasion figures quoted are fact, not something I've made up on the spot and anyone with some time on their hands and access to a search engine can easily back this up. You should also be aware that those tests are made on samples of similar size and thicknesses - given that most quality leather motorcycle garments are manufactured from 1.2-1.5mm cowhide, one of the redeeming features of the leather garment is it's ability to endure repeated abrasion.
However, as you rightly point out textile is not used for racing (though full Kevlar suits are approved in many countries), there are many reasons for this that go well beyond a simple difference in materials.
One thing to consider is that road and track are two completely different environments, a road/touring rider has need for a garment that provides protection, but this is not the single focused need of a racer - the touring rider will also encounter varying extremes of weather from hot sun to cold rainy conditions etc., also they will generally want to carry more gear with them and have easy access to wallets, cigarettes, cell phones or whatever.
With textile gear it is far easier and more cost effective to be able to manufacture these requirements into the garment without sacrificing protection or drastically increasing costs.
Leather garments intended for motorcycle use generally do not feature the bulky pockets etc., familiar to textile users, and with good reason - as stated in the link previously posted 'Leather should be worn snug because when leather folds it's tear strength lowers considerably.' This is why most if not all leather jackets have snugger, internal pockets and less of them - with leather fit is an important part of it's ability to provide effective protection.
There is also the fact that good leather can sustain repeated abrasion, something familiar to most racersalso, the track environment is substantially different to that of the road - in general the rider will endure sliding and tumbling forces for much longer than a road rider due to the nature of a race track, it's run off areas and so on. In fact many modern race leathers feature 'sliders' on their extremities made from Teflon, Polyurethane, Titanium and other such materials to promote sliding in an effort to reduce muscle and ligament tearing or similar damage.
Conversely a road rider generally faces an environment festooned with solid objects, so the requirement is to actually reduce the time spent sliding in an effort to avoid the likelihood of hitting such objects. But, at the same time you don't want materials that will grab the road surface too much otherwise they will induce tumbling or bouncing that could increase injury to the rider.
So it could be argued that the armour in whatever garment you choose (or what you wear under the garment is almost of more importance than the garment itself, especially in the case of a road rider who in most cases will invariably be wearing several layers of clothing that will aid in protection unlike his track counterpart who relies on just his suit and perhaps a comfort liner.
Really the choice of garment largely comes down to your intended use, ideally riders who use their bike as a first mode of transport would ideally have a selection of leather and textile garments (as many do) to suit varying seasons and riding requirements, whereas a touring rider might just decide on a textile outfit. The big thing is to be honest with yourself regarding your intended usage and buying the best product to suit.
Leather undoubtedly looks sharper and may have more 'street cred' whatever that's worth, but I would like to think that sensible motorcyclists would select gear based on more than just narcissism. If your choice based on your needs ends up looking cool, I would view that as a bonus rather than a raison d'κtre.
Your statement regarding price may be true at the lower end of the market, but with good gear the price difference can be negligible, for good reason - the products and technology that go into these products as opposed to cheap polyester knock-offs with foam 'armour' are poles apart.
You also correctly point out that any garment you buy to wear requires care to keep it in good condition and performing to expectations. This is equally true with products like Gore-Tex and other breathable membrane fabrics - most people are not aware that these garments require special care when washing, for instance using your normal soap powder will actually degrade the performance of the membrane and if repeatedly washed in such product it will eventually clog all the pores in the membrane making the material sweat from condensation giving the illusion that the garment is leaking. There are specialist detergents available for cleaning these products, the one I use is Sportwash, made by the Sno Seal people though Nikwax and others make similar products - usually available from sports outlets as most motorcycle shops unfortunately haven't cottoned onto this. You can also use pure soap such as Lux Flakes. Also, textile garments will require occasionally spraying with a waterproofing agent, again good ones are available from most sports shops. This is because the outer layer of most good textile garments have a water repellent coating from new that eventually wears off through use, repeated washing and so on. Good garments with a membrane liner will remain waterproof of course, but the less that gets past that first layer the better and of course the lighter your gear will be...
Obviously, riding in the winter in an uninsulated textile jacket is as, if not more dangerous as riding in a leather jacket, though if it was a textile jacket with a membrane liner it would be at least be wind and waterproof unlike an unlined leather jacket. You may scoff at that but leather is in fact not windproof in itself, though you would be unlikely to experience that on shorter rides. On longer rides windchill will soon make itself apparent though due to one of leathers natural features, it's breathablity - the very thing that also lets it down on the waterproofing side as well. ask any old school biker that has ridden in NZ winters and stuffed newspapers down the front of their leather jacket in winter for warmth - back in the days when leather bomber jackets were the height of technology. Therefore you should really be looking at leather garments with a removable thermal liner for better all round use. Beeswax based products are preferable for the care of leather as it retains the leathers natural qualities whilst giving it the ability to repel all but the most serious or extended downpours. It also will seal seams without rotting stitching (like animal fat based products such as dubbin) and retain the leathers natural suppleness.
On the subject of race leathers, it's interesting to note that at the top end - as in product currently in use in the likes of MotoGP, WSBK etc., the actual percentage of leather used is dropping all the time. In fact some 'leathers' may have less than 50% actual leather in their make-up, products like stretch Kevlar, Kevlar cloth, Polyurethane and/or Titanium external armour and synthetic leather substitutes like Lorica (widely used in top end race boots) and Clarino (the substance used in the majority of MX gloves and now widely used in the manufacture of gloves and garments) are taking over for reasons of durability, weight, cost and so on.
I expect synthetic leathers to become even more widely used in the future especially as the Green movement affects more and more of the development of products, the farming of bovine animals being high on their hit list due to their apparently large contribution to greenhouse gases. Not only that, the weight advantage of synthetic leather is very real to teams looking for every possible advantage, where even things like sponsor logos are no longer sewn or applied to leathers - the top MotoGP leathers feature laser etched sponsor graphics directly onto the material to save weight!
I don't profess to know all there is to know on the subject of motorcycle garments - far from it, but having been in the industry for over 25 years and having worked closely with two of Europe's biggest and most well known brands specialising in these products for many years my aim here is to impart some of that knowledge to those looking to buy such gear, so that they may make a well informed buying decision on what is a highly important purchase.
And even armed with such knowledge there are still conflicting arguments over which gear is right, especially for those in a position to have to choose one or the other due to budgetary constraints.
The only rule that does seem to hold true as Quasi correctly points out - you get what you pay for. Hopefully with a bit of due diligence it will also be what you expected.
Happy gear buying folks! And apologies for the long winded posts, just hope they are of help to some
FYI:
http://www.loricasud.com/english/english/chisiamo.asp
http://www.clarino-am.com/
http://www.atsko.com/index.html
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes. After that, who cares? ...He's a mile away and you've got his shoes
Unexpected Spanish inquisition
I should also mention that woven polyester fabric is still widely used in textile jackets, but even with this fabric there are varying qualities with resulting varying performance.
Cheaper garments tend to use more polyester, using varying deniers to create the look of Cordura or Ballistic Nylon without the expense or abrasion resistance. Higher quality garments will use polyester on less critical areas and will invariably use a higher quality fabric coated with an anti-abrasion product, usually polyurethane (often referred to as PU in brochure jargon) which also adds water resistance, flame resistance and also improves the feel of the fabric. Some high-tech PU coatings are breathable too, allowing water repellency but allowing perspiration and condensation to escape.
A good textile garment will have panels of Cordura or Ballistic Nylon (or in some cases leather or Kevlar) at the critical areas such as shoulders, elbows, seat, knees and so on to provide optimum abrasion resistance.
It should also have adjustable (and preferably removable, for cleaning purposes) armour at the shoulders, elbows (with good forearm coverage), at least a foam back protector - preferably an armour type or the ability to upgrade to one. Pants should have similar armour in the knee/shin area. Note that hard plastic armour with little padding is not ideal and can be uncomfortable and possibly contribute to an injury. This type of armour is usually found in lower end budget gear.
What you should be looking for is either the high density rubber type or a combination of a hard nylon outer and high density foam or gel inner layer(s).
Also ensure that the armour is CE marked, whilst not foolproof as many Asian knock off products carry fake CE markings it's something to look for when making an overall judgement.
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes. After that, who cares? ...He's a mile away and you've got his shoes
mini meeeeeee
I have both Rjays textile gear and leather jacket and pants. The leather looks nice but since it's supposed to fit "tight" I find that thermals are all I can fit underneath them. I've ridden in torrential down pouring rain in my "cordura" and been really warm and dry - big advantage of being able to wear more layers than under the leather for warmth.
When I came off my bike I was about to overtake on the motorway - my leather jacket ripped open at the neck (my zip hadn't been fully closed as I'd tried stuffing a small scarf around my neck) and the summer top I was wearing got ripped right from neckline to elbow. Wasn't wearing my leather pants but my everyday dress jeans got ripped down the seam and across the left thigh - yet miraculously my legs weren't injured at all, apart from bruising.
Obviously I can't say how my other gear would have stood up to the impact and slide (and I've no desire to find out) but suffice to say nothing is bulletproof. Both lots of gear are armoured so personally I'm happy using either.
p.s. although katman has said image is everythingI wouldn't worry about whether you look like a knob or not. Warmth is just as important an issue for safety when you're riding.
I lahk to moove eet moove eet...
Katman to steveb64
Forum whore
Are many people wearing a textile jacket and leather pants while riding?
mini meeeeeee
Katman does, and I'm sure he's not completely alone in that. However, how many people will own up to it now is debatable
I lahk to moove eet moove eet...
Katman to steveb64
Hardcore Biker
I have sets of both and for commuting I use the textile gear.
It's warm.
It's breathable.
It's waterproof. I can't stop in the middle of the motorway to get out a rain suit in case of sudden downpour.
It has armour in it.
Now I've never slid off - ever, so I can't tell you how good it performs in a crash.
What I will say is that ....
- textile is more convienient because it's lighter and dries easily.
- quality textile gear doesn't leak
- quality textile gear isn't cheap but isn't as expensive as leather.
- If I'm going to the track I wear leather. If I'm going out for a 5 hour ride and it's warm and sunny I wear leather.
- if you can only afford one set then buy textile and buy a back protector to go with it.
Hardcore Biker
Hi.
Check out our Black Hawk Suit at $700.00. You will be impressed. Cheers
www.1tonne.co.nz
Blood - just give it!
Fuck me - advertising makes it into everything, even good discussion threads where other retailers have refrained from doing as such.
At the 2007 Westpac Ride:
Donor: So ya glad you're a Biker?
Minnie: F**k yeah!
Hardcore Biker
I sell cordura and leather and I also wear both. I wear cordura in the winter as it is warmer and leather in the summer when I decide to go like a bat out of hell. Leather is safer in a crash but cordura would be better for the everyday rider who doesn't plan on traveling at 160km+ constantly.
Cheers.
Nathan
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