What you can do at a bike crash scene

[FROSTY:Me]

PLEASE COULD THE EMS STAFF POST THEIR OPINIONS.

Folks I am FAR from a medical or accident scene expert. Im hoping to plagerise the experts
I TOTALLY DEFER TO THE ACTUAL EXPERTS--AMBULANCE STAFF,police or fire service
What I would like to do or have done here is create a thread as a sticky with clear instruction on what to do at a motorcycle crash scene.
Im thinking that a completely new thread could be made or this origonal post modified once expert advice is given


I'll get the ball rolling
Before actually doing ANYTHING --Look the scene over- Use this oporunity to CALM DOWN (you wouldn't be human if you diddn't get at least a bit wound up about a freind being hurt)
Decide what has the highest prioroty -Patient,traffic control or hazard management.
Im putting events in order according to my opinion of their urgency in the "perfect world" -- EVERY situation is different so dont get too hung up on the order.
1) KEEP YOURSELF SAFE and stay calm --you are no use to anyone if you become the next victim.
2) Warn other traffic of the accident scene so they dont add to the damage or damage themselves.
Again STAY SAFE
3) in the ideal world where all has gone to plan now you can Move to the actual accident scene
A)ensure external danger to the victim/victims is removed--Ie pick a bike up if its fuel is running down the road or move the victim if they are going to get run over by a semi trailer etc. If you absolutely have to move the victim Do it ONCE
Lift/carry them in as close to their original position as you can, while the recovery position works, moving them and trying to get them into it could inflict more damage, potentially fatal damage.
###In my opinion if the bike or bikes pose no danger to the victims then picking them up is very low priority.
B)Making sure the victim or victims are breathing and any major bleeds are stopped.
--Dealing with multiple victims --
go to the quietest one first
If you can make noise you're alive enough to complain.
4) Contact the EMS with clear instructions as to the precise location,the nature of the accident, the number of victims AND the severity of injuries. I cannot emphasise how important Clear precise information is to these folks .
5) Where possible stay with the victim. Comfort them,let them know EMS are coming.

6) once all of the above is taken care of then see what you can do to make the victim more comfortable and warm.Use what you have available-a jacket,a car seat rug or similar . Talk to them, tell them help is coming, ask if they are cold? if there was anyone else with them? while they are able to talk, information can be vital, for instance, are they diabetic? are they haemophiliac? are they allergic to treatment drugs such as morphine/penicillin?
The experts talk about putting the victim into the recovery position.
My theory on that one is if it aint broke dont fix it. -not that I dont wanna help but if they"re not in danger of getting run over by a semi or fried by electric wires They are breathing,hearts beating and they aint gonna bleed out I dont wanna move em. If you absolutely have to move them.Do it ONCE!
7)Once all the above is done, without moving them, or removing the helmet, see if you can speak to them, start to assess THE NON LIFE THREATENING injuries, This can save the EMS some time and help them to decide which victim to deal with first.
8) If its not impeding breathing and theres no odvious head trauma dont take the helmet off but DO undo the chinstrap.leave it on for trained personnel to remove! The lid lining offers a not too bad and cleanish pillow and keeps the head warm also you could cause more damage The lid itself also provides a few clues to possible head trauma --

OF COURSE --all that goes out the window if they are not breathing or blood is running out in rivers from somewhere.
Again--my opinion here DEAD is dead so if they aint breathing a potential broken back or neck wont matter because theyre already dead. Nothing you do can make things worse if you cant get em breathing again or you cant stop a big bleed . Riff Raff has a thread saying how to get a lid off
Do be carefull though .
Remember the basic cpr.--check the airway is clear .....



One bit of advice I got a long time ago was do SOMETHING. even if all you can do is hold their hand.

THeres a lot of variables here folks.
In a group ride you might not be up to dealing with an injured mate--so Go be the guy that stops traffic Your job is just as important because you are protecting your mate on the ground and your mates helping him .
It should go without saying that you DO NOT give the victim anything at all be it food/water or painkillers.
Theres clearly exceptions being an astmatic needing their puffer or a diabetic needing a sugar fix



PLEASE FOLKS HOWSABOUT WE KEEP THIS SERIOUS --COULD ACTUALLY SAVE YOUR LIFE -OR A MATES SOMEDAY.

IM MORE THAN HAPPY IF ANY OF THIS IS BAD ADVICE TO HAVE IT EDITED OR REMOVED BY THE MODERATORS

Could the cynics please piss off -I don't give a shit if its me or someone else that sorts this out -- I just do think its pretty important stuff

[caseye]

Hey Frosty, this is a damn fine idea, there are others here at KB more qualified than you or me I'd guess but hey, here goes, you've covered the important stuff
and, well, my contribution is this.
Like Frosty said 'if it ain't broke don't fix it", so if an accident victim is not in any other! immediate danger and appears to be responding to their surroundings and input from people attending them, then DON'T move them at all.

The "check the quietest ones first" was brilliant advice and absolutely spot on, breathing, clearing airways etc is vital.

A quick, careful running over of hands(yours!) will tell you if there are any compound fractures ( broken bones puncturing through flesh), cuts, puncture wounds or other (embedded objects) which need immediate attention.

Talk to them, tell them help is coming, ask if they are cold? if there was anyone else with them? while they are able to talk, information can be vital, for instance, are they diabetic? are they haemophiliac? are they allergic to treatment drugs such as morphine/penicillin?

If you absolutely have to move them.Do it ONCE!

Lift/carry them in as close to their original position as you can, again, while the recovery position works, moving them and trying to get them into it could inflict more damage, potentially fatal damage.

KEEP ALL HELMETS ON, unless there is no other choice than to remove it.ie: choking.

As always there is more, it may involve multiple riders, it may involve cars/trucks etc and their passengers.
main thing, DON'T PANIC, get help (for you) tell people who will listen! TO go stop,/divert traffic, alert authorities, look for other victims, check vehicles for ignitions still on ( turn em off) and or if able and willing to attend to other victims.
Again as Frosty said "DO SOMETHING"

I hope no one reading this thread now or in the future ever has to put anything that has or will be said into practice!
I would like everyone who reads this thread to remember one thing.
One day it could be you, if the person attending YOU had read this thread or something similar.Like you they'd try and they'd "DO SOMETHING"
No one can ask for more than that.

[Gremlin]

I guess this is more suitable for the track, where severe injury is less likely (lack of objects to collide with)

Once all Frosty says is done, without moving them, or removing the helmet, see if you can speak to them, start to assess injuries, because depending them, moving them could be a very bad idea indeed.

Also be aware that the person can't always tell the real situation, due to adrenaline etc.

Number 1 is keeping yourself safe, number two is other people, common on the road for vehicles coming from either way to be travelling too quick, so important to get out other people/vehicles to warn approaching vehicles to slow down, and you can't be 10m from the incident (not enough time for them to slow down)

Emergency services will generally tell you not to move the people, or at least, they have to me, when I have had to report accidents. It is important to know where you are, so you can give an accurate location for emergency services.

[FROSTY:Me]

I would really like advise from EMS folks on this one.Please let me know if im wrong in anything im saying here --DONER?? Speedie? Riff Raff ?? Firefight etc

[yungatart]

I recently did a First Aid Course and asked the question about removal of helmets. We were told that it is actually very difficult to remove a helmet from an injured person, and takes two to do it.
Their advice was, unless it is immediately life threatening, leave it on for trained personnel to remove!
My only other advice would be to do a First Aid Course.
Somebody needs to take charge, most people will hang back and wait for someone else to do it...make sure you can!

[sunhuntin]

how bout this? DONT give them medicines/drugs thinking it will help, cos it could well kill them. [ie, like dangerousb would try to do] and if you are the victim, refuse all drugs unless offered by ems.

might also be an idea to carry in ones wallet what medications you are on, as if you are out cold, ems might not know that what they give you could react badly with what you are taking.

[FROSTY:Me]

Again folks please could ems staff contribute here -or by PM

[firefighter]

Again folks please could ems staff contribute here -or by PM

1. Secure Scene/Position vehicle in fend-off position
2. Call 111. Ask for FIRE if persons trapped
3. Stop and take a breath, take in scene, be calm
4. If you have rubber gloves put them on
5. Start Basic Triage (if more than one person injured)
6. Administer first aid, loosen collar/helmut strap
7. Keep patients warm/cool
8. Take down notes (use bystanders if available)
9. Ask questions from back of card, write down all answers.
10. Ask their age, name, DOB, address, next of kin, phone number
11. Handover

Do not move anyone unless they're in danger

Do not take off helmut unless CPR required

Keep clothing on unless you need to stop major bleeding.

Then some acronyms on the back of the card:

S-Stop
T-Think
B-Barriers
M-Move

Breathing
Bleeding
Burns
Breaks

Level of conciousness
Alert
Voice induces response
Pain induces response
Unresponsive to stimuli

Head injury
Pupils
Equal
And
Reacting to
Light

PAIN
Provocation
Quality (stabbing, burning, sharp)
Radiation (does injury make another part of body hurt)
Severity (1-10)
Time - (intermittent/constant, when did it start)

Signs/symptoms
Allergies they have
Medications they are on
Past history
Last meal/liquid taken? how long ago?
Events prior

[FROSTY:Me]

Don't get wrapped up in trying to preform a miracle, just do your "Safety ABC."

Mate Im gonna plagerise you outragously--if wot you wrote reads better iLL USE YOUR WORDS

but--THAT last bit I think Im safe in saying the worst thiing to do in an accident is NOTHING

[firefighter]

Mate Im gonna plagerise you outragously--if wot you wrote reads better iLL USE YOUR WORDS

Yeah you pretty much have it all in a nutshell, I just tried to make it simple as a simple thing.

I dunno if it reads better but just trying to go with the KISS theme, if people follow the sequence of events, any experience or training they have will be a bonus.
All Patient care stuff really needs to come from a course, where they can get into proper practise/detail.

but--THAT last bit I think Im safe in saying the worst thiing to do in an accident is NOTHING

Your right there, even if the only doing is calling 111 and protecting the scene, throwing over a blanket and keeping them company then anything else is a bonus.

Good idea putting up the thread.

[FROSTY:Me]

Yea mate--look Im happy to let THIS thread dissapear and have experts create a new one. Im literally just adding ideas as people raise em up then I thought I'd clean it all up so the KISS works. Or as I said No ego on this particualer subject--if the mods wanna come in and choppy choppy Im equally happy
I think it really is that important

[riffer]

Sticking my oar in on behalf of the diabetics...

let's clear up this misconception that when diabetics aren't well it's because they need insulin. You see it's most likely the exact opposite.

You see we insulin dependent diabetics have a bit of a problem metabolising sugar. It tends to stick around in the blood stream. This is because we have a problem with an organ called the pancreas which creates insulin. Insulin is like the "key" which opens the doors in the cells of the body to allow sugar into them to feed them.

So what we do is inject ourselves with insulin to help.

The consequences of too much sugar in the blood are many, but only very rarely do they actually cause us problems in handling machinery or anything like that.

Normal blood sugar is between 4 and 8 millimols per litre. I've personally gone up to 43 millimols and still been rational.

The big problem for diabetics is when the blood sugar level gets TOO LOW. This is called a hypo.

The symptoms - we get shakey, we slur our words and we sound confused. And because our body starts burning ketones, we start excreting acetone in our breath - we smell drunk.

The solution - give us some sugar.

If you give us insulin, what will happen? The blood sugar will get lower - first we lose consciousness, then we stroke, then we die.

Quite quickly.

So if a diabetic has a problem, don't assume we need insulin. You may very well kill us.

[FROSTY:Me]

hey riffer to put it in simple terms- Im better to jam a moro bar in yer gob than shoot ya up with yer insulin pen--is that it ??
or would I be better to feed you coke?--high sugar content n all

[riffer]

You got it in one mate.

SUGAR.

It's hard to judge exactly how much insulin you need because the insulin injected just opens these doorways completely. So if you're doing some high intensity stuff, like riding fast, you'll use up energy faster than you would normall. Say I'm sitting at my desk working. I'll have say 20 units of insulin for a standard two sammies and coffee lunch. Now if I'm riding, I'll only need 12 units. Or maybe only 6.

Woops. I took 12 and now I'm running low. First I know is my head feels a bit fuzzy. Then I've got a major adrenaline rush.

You know when you come into a corner, lean it over and it tightens just as you go under the trees where there's some moss? The bike slides out, you lean like fuck, hold that throttle, and the bike gradualy picks up grip, throws an almighty great wobbly and nearly throws you off. But you save it.

And about 10 seconds later your heart is beating like crazy and your head's a mess.

That's what it feels like when your blood sugar is low.

Except it doesn't stop. Until about ten minutes after you get sugar into yourself.

Anyway, this is starting to get a wee bit off topic. Apologies for that.

[caseye]

Bump, come on you lot, this is gaining some great feedback lets be having those experts, streamlining the thread will work great FROSTY.