Choose a turn style

[bikemike]

Recently, I have noticed a factor in bad cornering which I was not fully aware of before. I thought I'd share and see what others' thoughts are. If it's been posted elsewhere, I'm sure some librarian will point me there...

Even though I understand counter steering and its part in cornering, and even though I think my cornering lines are pretty good. Sometimes I get an uneasy feeling and I know that my corner was less than optimal. If I'm distracted it can be bloody shite.

I have an idea what's causing it.

There are three categories of body position in the corner:

1. bolt upright mr policeman, old timer
2. lay it down crosser/motard anarchist
3. hanging off cool crew

I remember discussing this at the training session we had last year here. I use them all. (would a cool copper be an anarchist?) The problem I've found is that whilst I can execute all three styles quite happily, sometimes I am not choosing.

That is, I see the corner, I look round it, choose my line and speed but I have not selected a cornering style. The result is a wooden tippy toes feeling which is not very nice. It's pretty dangerous actually as It can lead to target fixation, inappropriate braking, brain freeze or others. Essentially this is you your body and your bike fighting. It's a bit like the feeling you get when you pull anchors but forget to roll off fully. It's worse though; you are failing to negotiate the corner...

Many corners can be done any of the three ways. But if you don't pick ONE or them alone, it goes pear shaped.

I notice this most on smaller roundabouts. Here I fail to choose between upright and lay down. When I realise what's going on here, I think, if it's grippy I lay the bike in more to recover my turning radius. If it's greasy I find the mistake usually came about because I'm tense - so I relax and it comes right.

Occasionally I notice it on wider bends, when I fail to choose between upright and hang off. When I realise what's going on I get the inside elbow forward and down and look deeper into the bend.

So what I'm saying is nothing about the three styles (or any others you might have) or anything indeed about the physics of cornering, but specifically about the benefits of making a conscious decision on your cornering style for each corner. A bit like selecting a gear, a speed, a line.

You have to choose your cornering style too. I've been playing with this for a little bit, I think it helps.

I was going to grab some photos to illustrate, but perhaps it's not needed and I'd rather hear others' ideas. Thoughts?

[Gremlin]

To a certain degree, I agree, however, I think its more the mind. When you're nervous/unsure about a corner, the bike is unsettled, making it seem worse.

When you're confident/happy, so is the bike, making it easier...

I use all styles, sometimes multiple in a single corner... its fun!

[Conquiztador]

I have lately been riding a K100 I picked up for a song. She needed work on suspension, tyres and more. As a result she was a pain in the corners. My cornering style has always been one of "old skool" where I let the bike do the leaning and I tuck my self in. None of this ass sliding over the seat and knee out stuff. Or speedway style (I used to ride solos years ago). It has never changed through the years. I feel comfy with that. I am a cruizer rider from way back but have had some faster semi-race bikes.

Now with this K100 as she was I could not use my normal style. Back end and forks would wiggle all over the place. So there was two options: slow around corners and then ride like she was stolen on straights, or leave bike standing up and hang off the side in the corners. As I hate slowing down the option was hanging all out. It does work and it is not tricky. Quite cool actually. But farkin tiring. So for me it is not a natural option. Now when I have done some work on her and improved the cornering capabilities heaps I have reverted back to my favored style. I feel more in control and can focus on what I do instead of trying to slide all over the place. So for me it is not about deciding on a style. It is only one style that applies.

But that is just me. And I am far from a RR rider.

[idleidolidyll]

Frankly, I'd have to say that if making a choice between the three styles is tending to screw up your corner, you're not concentrating enough or going far too fast for your skill level/road conditions.

Riding quickly on the road and racing require completely different styles altogether if you wanna be an old rider.

On the race track you know nothing is coming the other way, you know what obstacles are or are not there, you know there is no gravel or pothole halfway around the bend and you know that if you fall, there will be some level of run off, hay bale, ambulance etc to make a difference to your outcome. On the track you know you can take any line in, brake late or lean way way over, and you can screw it up a bit or make that pass without serious fear of loss of life or limb.

On the road you must ALWAYS expect the road to be a mess just out of sight with a 36 wheel truck coming the other way and a slip on your side so you have to use a pencil thin 'line' on the corner. To ride any other way is crazy: you'll get away with it 100 times, 1000 times but the 'next time' you'll be in hospital or in a wooden box.

My 2c is to pick a 'style' before you start the ride and stick to it for the whole ride. Trying to change styles to suit every corner on the road introduces an extra bunch of thought processes that are going to delay your reaction times.

[YellowDog]

You say you already have the skills, but you are just making mistakes on some occasions. Personally I think the problem is all in your head (not intended as an insult).

If you relax and don't think about the corner, only your speed, your natural ability will kick in and take you around the corner smoothly.

No need to over analyse it. Just do it.

[bikemike]

My 2c is to pick a 'style' before you start the ride and stick to it for the whole ride. Trying to change styles to suit every corner on the road introduces an extra bunch of thought processes that are going to delay your reaction times.

I wondered about this, but I do change styles on the ride, but not normally in a single corner! I adjust according to what I can see, how fast I am riding, how focussed I am. There are some nice climbing turns on the Akaroa ride where there is good visibility and grip and I do get off the bike to the inside a little, get my weight forward a bit and it gets the bike nice and stable. Most of the way though I'd ride upright and concentrate on being relaxed and smooth. In traffic and around town either end, I'd drop the bike on the inside. I don't change for change sake, but the road changes and different styles suit different circumstances.

Don't get me wrong, this is not a common problem for me, but I just wondered if it is indecision rather than not being relaxed, wrong tyre pressures and so on. Certainly, If I make a commitment to the turning style on a more unusual corner, then I sail through much more sweetly than just trying to let it happen. I wonder if it's just these borderline corners, that I might take either way. If I don't choose, I don't always get it right.

I think the not being relaxed ends up in a poor execution of one style. being indecisive feels more crossed up.

[MIXONE]

I have never tried to think my way around a corner.Just relax and enjoy the ride.
Point in case.
One day I was racing a guy on a katana.He was in front and I was using him as my breaking point.One corner was quite tight and as we hit it I was thinking "fark I would be braking by now if I was in front".He went into a tank slapper moments before I did.I was spending so much time watching him cartwheel down the road that I completely forgot about my bike and as a consequence relaxed and the bike rode itself round the corner!

[MSTRS:Me]

There are three categories of body position in the corner:

1. bolt upright mr policeman, old timer
2. lay it down crosser/motard anarchist
3. hanging off cool crew

Those are the basics - there are styles 'within' them.
At the end of the day, the 'policeman' style is all you really need on the road. Perhaps coupled with a shift of upper body to the inside of the corner.
We all find that one style suits us best and generally stick with that. Just practice using the ONE style that feels right for you. Once you find yourself not thinking about it anymore, then your skill has progressed to the point where you may wish to experiment.
YellowDog has it sussed.

[slofox]

I tend to stick with just one "method". I tuck down on the tank and stay as low as possible (actually I am just too lazy to stay upright...) My preference is to stay with the bike, maybe drop the shoulder if I have to push it a bit more than expected. I don't climb around all over the place. I like to stay one with the bike, with no tension in the arms at all - just hang the arms off the grips - and let the machine do the work. Which it willingly does and does best when I interfere with it least. Modern bikes are way better at this than the old clunkers I cut my teeth on. Which is why I like 'em so much.

[Retch]

I don't even know how I'm cornering when I'm on a bigger bike, it just seems to happen - its rare that I am trying to go beyond myself though, thats when I get into trouble.

The best bet is always to just ride within yourself right?

[idleidolidyll]

Mate, I know the Akaroa ride and rode it damn near every weekend for 10 years.

Go to the Hilltop and turn back to face Little River, turn off your engine and push your bike a bit until it gets rolling. Now coast ALL the way down the hill trying not to touch the brakes if possible but be very wary of coming up behind cars as you will have a hell of a job getting past them. Note how close to Little River township you get and do it over again.
In fact if you can do it, get a mate to ride slowly behind you with power on holding up the traffic and make sure you leave a good 5 mins between the last car ahead and when you take off.
If you can learn to be smooth without any power at all, you'll be taking a big step toward real skill with the luxury of an engine.

There used to be a memorail ride to and from the Hilltop each year, dunno if it's still running. Some of us used to pretty much block the road so we could have a 'race' at low speed like this without any danger of sardine cans taking us out.
Fat guys who are brave enough to leave off the brakes have inertia on their side and can often get further along than skinny chicks on little bikes.

[beyond]

You really need to decide what style you will use for road riding and just stick with it. No point having heaps of tricks up your sleeve and not being able to decide which one to use when the chips are down. Best pound the daylights out of one trick and get it down to pat so when the crap hit's the fan you are on auto.

I do not have the luxury of a quick handling, light supersports bike and deal with minimal ground clearance when pushing really hard.

I have found I can ride hard all day without problems by countersteeering a lot, braking late as a heavy bike allows this and leaning my whole upper body sideways while keeping my knees in. I shift close to the tank and lean my shoulder well into the corners. The old girl handles quite well but you get to know why they call it a muscle bike.

I believe knee down on the road, hanging off like a monkey is going to have you heading off in the opposite direction like a mascot on the grill of the latest overseas visitors camper van.

[bogan]

i still class myself as a noob rider, so take my advice as such but i read a book that ays its much safer to shift bodyweight to the inside of a corner, this keeps the pegs well away from the ground, and keeps the suspension at a high angle from the road surface where it operates better. As such if i go round a corner in either of the other two styles at significant speed it feels horrible.
Of course when on my dirtbike i lay it down crosser styles.

[bikemike]

Go to the Hilltop and turn back to face Little River, turn off your engine and push your bike a bit until it gets rolling. Now coast ALL the way down the hill trying not to touch the brakes if possible but be very wary of coming up behind cars as you will have a hell of a job getting past them. Note how close to Little River township you get and do it over again.

Reckon there's a couple of tight corners on the way down that would have me on the brakes!

I believe knee down on the road, hanging off like a monkey is going to have you heading off in the opposite direction like a mascot on the grill of the latest overseas visitors camper van.

Absolutely agree, can't condone it. I've never had my knee down and have absolutely no wish too. I'm just talking about making those rising corners a little more comfy. Just getting over the front a little, keeping the bike up a little, easing any stepping out etc. No more than that.

There seems to be a consensus on picking one style and doing it well. I guess if you are a sports rider or a motard rider that might work, or at least seem like what's going on. I'm still pretty convinced I use all three styles quite comfortably and naturally on every ride.

You know that feeling you get when you are walking down stairs and suddenly you lose that automatic ability to put one foot in front of the other, and you get mixed up feet? Never happen? Just me? Shit. Well, what I''m describing feels a bit like that. Just occasionally, the automatic systems are not there.

I don't think thinking about it has got me into those situations. On the contrary, it has taken some thinking after the fact to work out what's going on. I know it's not just me either. I have followed many riders who seem to ride nice and smooth and then for some reason hit the brakes half way round one corner, or seem to ride the bike like a contrary pillion on one corner they don't like, or freeze up and coast the bike round. I don't think it's always lack of cornering ability, sometimes I think it's riding the cusp of two cornering styles, automatically or consciously.

[bikemike]

i still class myself as a noob rider, so take my advice as such

Don't discount your advice as a noob. Sometimes those least familiar with something notice stuff that more experienced folks have internalised, acclimatised or plain forgotten!