Flags, colours, and their use

[MSTRS:Me]

How would you individually red flag a rider? It would be very hard at most tracks to guarantee another rider following behind had not seen the red flag shown or moved

I've always understood the flag rules (well certainly UK ACU wise) to be that, the black flag was the flag to be used to stop an individual rider and that flag should be accompanied by the rider number or failing that a very clear indication from a marshal to the rider concerned. It can be shown at marshal points and the start/finish line.

The red flag being shown to a rider could surely be easily mistaken by another following rider as the race is being stopped and while it may well not be at the next post an element of doubt on what's going on would be in place. If i ever see a red flag or glimpse it I reduce pace ASAP as its meant to be for the end of racing, most likely for a major incident or problems on track. Equally a red flag does not normally mean stop straight away (unless indicated at a point on track to do so) it means stop racing and substantially reduce pace proceeding as per instructions. I guess this could cover the rider in question being required to stop but i just question the use of the red flag for that reason?

It was an unusual situation, in that the bike involved was obviously "in trouble" and was circulating on the inside of the track at or below half race pace. Other points had attempted to stop this rider proceeding without success. We were instructed to do "whatever it took". Marshall points are not issued black flags and the term "red flag" is only ever used by race control, and if called, all points are to use the red. This call is only issued if race control is stopping the race. In the case, clearly they were not stopping the race, but simply wanted that bike off the track and not spreading fluids any further than he already had. The call to 'do whatever it takes' was clarified by the marshal on the radio with race control - who said (without saying the words) use the red. As I said, use of the words 'red flag' over the radio would mean all other points would display theirs and that was not control's intention.
Bear in mind that this bike's problem was reported by point 1 and he had now reached point 7.

[crazzed]

Crazzed ! The wall WAS made off limits to spectators yesterday, at riders brief !
But as has been said, the wall is not where the flags are waved from and you did crash at higgins ! Sorry mate that aint the fault of no black shirt waving spectator !
Thats as bad as me saying something like it was Sketchies (who has learnt by the way, he didn't just arrive yesterday and start winning) fault that i crashed in splash yesterday, i mean i had been chasing him for a lap and a bit since he passed me in Qualifying and well hey if i hadn't been trying so hard to stay in touch (haha ok so it was half a lap by that stage) i would never have gone into splash so hot !!!!
You highsided at higgins mate, learn from it if you can remember how it went down, don't try and pin that on anyone else !
Black flag means you or your bike has a prob, Come in and see what it is ! Not go so hard you highside a minute later !

as a last note im blaming the spectactor directly but it does change your mind set and i have learnt from it(note to self keep calm when overtaken for the leed). im new to racing and it's alot to comprehend all at once. just pissed i lost concentration due it. glad to hear something being done about it.

ok back on track with thread ive highjacked it enough now.

[sinfull]

Listen not having a go at the marshals involved, they all without exception do a great job without which we as racers would not be able to race.

I've raced at most levels in over 150 meetings and i completely agree with Frosty, in my opinion the red flag was/is the wrong flag for that type of incident. Equally while the person using the hand signals may well have known exactly what his meaning was the rider may well have a different view/interpretation of those hand signals based on all he had going on in trying to race his bike.

I completely appreciate that the officials did what they could on that day at that time for the best but the flag is still the wrong one, a black flag should have been used.

Why have the posts not got black flags?

Or perhaps we could learn from the experience ! A black waved at me would have me thinking somethings wrong, best i circulate at half pace back to the pits !!
Maybe as Tony said a new flag or combo of two together could be introduced ?? Get off the track and on the grass flag/s ?

as a last note im blaming the spectactor directly but it does change your mind set and i have learnt from it(note to self keep calm when overtaken for the leed). im new to racing and it's alot to comprehend all at once. just pissed i lost concentration due it. glad to hear something being done about it.

ok back on track with thread ive highjacked it enough now.

Yep and as a last note, i would ask that when your healed up and back at a meeting, come and let me know when it was you realised it was a T shirt and not a black flag, which had you go so hard you crashed ?

[ajturbo]

PLEASE NOTE...

the MNZ rep has sole charge on the presentation of ANY flag (apart from the yellow, this is presented asap after an incident at closest corner...bla, bla)
the presentation of any other colour is directed by the MNZ or clerk of the course only.

if the flag marshal is told to wave a red flag, and point at Joe blogs.

they have to do it!... the decision is taken out of their hands...

[ajturbo]

BLACK FLAG...=

get off the TRACK asap!...do NOT carry on riding around,


STOP THE BIKE AS SOON AND AS SAFELY AS YOU CAN...

[Skunk]

Seriously guys - read the rule book. You have all said you did when you applied for your race license!

Black flag is used at chief flag marshal point. Black Flag means return to the pits. You have broken the rules and are in trouble with race control.
Black and Orange dot is ONLY used at chief flag marshal point. Black Flag with Orange dot means STOP. Get off the track NOW there is an issue with the bike. Do not go any further.
Either of these flags are used by the club running the event - they are used at the instruction of the MNZ Steward.
Trouble is there is no other way of stopping a bike after it has gone past chief flag marshal.

This bike knew he was leaking oil and water and rode over one complete lap without thinking to stop and get off the track.

[ajturbo]

Shit Skunk.....

read the rule book???

WHY?????

[Kickaha]

There was a situation at Manfield 25/7/9 where a racer was spewing fluids and was individually redded to got off NOW, but who in fact continued round the track to the pits, but first moved from the inside of the track to the outside right at the entry to the fastest corner (Dunlop sweeper into the main straight).

What were the riders told at riders briefing regarding the red flags? were they told they could be made to stop on the circuit by the use of the red flag at any Marshalls post?

At the individual Marshall Points
Red waved - race is temporarily stopped, all riders drop off speed and with caution circulate to pit entrance (or sliplane as indicated by a marshall),

Which is how it should be done

In rare cases, an individual rider may be signalled with a red flag at a marshall point. That rider is to leave the track now. That means get off the track, onto the grass/whatever and out of the way as indicated by that marshall.

Red flag means the race stops, it isn't intended to be used for indivdual riders

now as you know, i was only in the pits and i was only watching it all unfold, the said rider was told in no uncertain words, (from the mnz rep and our track boss)that what he did was wrong and what he should have done... that rider will NEVER make that same mistake... and i do hope that other racers will learn from it...

I would have told the MNZ rep and track boss where to stick it, sounds like they need to brush up on what the flags are for as there is no provision in the MNZ manual for a red flag to be used to stop an individual rider on the circuit that I can see (correct me if I am wrong)

Im sorry guys to dissagree with you here. I'd say Im a reasonably experienced rider.
if I saw a red flag I would slow, Raise my left hand (curtosy to other following riders) and head back to the pits at about half race pace in a normal manner. I would at all times be prepared to stop if needed Because that is EXACTLY what a red flag tells me to do.

Exactly

If I saw a BLACK flag waved at me I would get off the racing line slow down and prepare to stop knowing full well the issue is with my conduct or there is an issue with my machine.

I'd only be doing that if my number was displayed beside it otherwise it would be business as usual

using red flag to get one rider to stop is not the proper use for it...and the riders breifing and other instruction quite clearly state to go back to the pits...

Tha's right it isn't, if a red flag is displayed the whole race stops not just one rider

Pleased you have started this thread John as i (being relatively new) did not know that a red being waved at me would mean stop where i am, I would be just like this rider who carried on unfortunately !

It doesn't and it shouldn't, the only flag that should be used is black with the number of the bike displayed beside it or in this case black/orange circle

[Nasty]

Ok who knows the cost of a flag?

To support VMCC I'd be happy to donate a black with orange spot (if they're not too expensive). Would be good to have the correct "get off the track flags".

Anyone else?

VMCC has the flags required at all points ...

The black and orange may only be used in conjunction with numbers

Black with Orange Centre: Road Race Only: Machine to be removed from the circuit immediately. The rider’s number must be shown on a board at the same point as the flag is displayed. Flags must be a minimum size of 24” x 24” (600mm x 600mm).

So what you are saying is to supply flags, but number boards etc are a real cost - flags are cheap compared - the black and orange is at the start finish and often ignored by riders as well. In this case everything was done to get the rider off the track in order to reduce the damage that his bike left behind - it wasn't achieved - and no other racer was affected by the use of the flag.

[Kickaha]

Trouble is there is no other way of stopping a bike after it has gone past chief flag marshal.

Then this need revising as they did with the red flags, black/orange flags at each point to be used under the direction of the appropriate steward

[Tony.OK]

VMCC has the flags required at all points ...

The black and orange may only be used in conjunction with numbers



So what you are saying is to supply flags, but number boards etc are a real cost - flags are cheap compared - the black and orange is at the start finish and often ignored by riders as well. In this case everything was done to get the rider off the track in order to reduce the damage that his bike left behind - it wasn't achieved - and no other racer was affected by the use of the flag.

Not meaning to argue........but a blackboard and chalk from the warehouse isn't going to cost alot.

Having the black and orange at the line is great but if someones bike starts dumping fluids at turn 1 theres no real rule at the moment to signal correctly to get the rider to stop.

[Nasty]

Not meaning to argue........but a blackboard and chalk from the warehouse isn't going to cost alot.

Having the black and orange at the line is great but if someones bike starts dumping fluids at turn 1 theres no real rule at the moment to signal correctly to get the rider to stop.

Black board and chalk is hard to see ... that is the problem with that ... they tried that for the first couple of years that Grub worked as asst clerk of course and replaced it with white backing and black numbers.

[FROSTY:Me]

Folks EVERY situation is different so planning for EVERY eventuality is impossible.
If the following helps in any way please take it.
I tried an experiment at the last KB track day.
What I did was ran a "rolling red" --which meant that the red flag was put out and waved at each flag point as the rider "at fault" came up to the flag point. It was then pulled in the moment they were past.
In my opinion it worked very well
-For trackdays I do the KISS thing and basicly its only the red and yellow flag used
IN THIS CASE of course Id suggest a rolling BLACK with the rider number displayed on the pit wall. In all honesty if a rider misses 2 flag points they are in my opinion too myopic to be safely allowed to race anyway.
(says he that missed the red end of session flag at the 07 bots)

[roadracingoldfart]

BLACK FLAG...=

get off the TRACK asap!...do NOT carry on riding around,


STOP THE BIKE AS SOON AND AS SAFELY AS YOU CAN...

Thats not what i read A.J but im just new to this shit.

6-19 The following flags will be recognised as the standard colours to be used as signals to riders during a race:
Green: Start
Red : All riders stop racing.
Yellow: Held Stationary – SLOW DOWN – Proceed with caution. No overtaking until danger area is passed. Sidecar riders-this could also mean your passenger is in difficulties.
Yellow: Waved – SLOW DOWN NOW – Proceed with extreme caution.
No overtaking until the danger area is passed, be prepared to stop.
White: Last lap.
Black:Individual rider to stop and retire from course. The rider’s number must be shown on a board at the same point as the black flag is displayed.Black and White Check: Finish for all riders.
Red and Yellow Stripes: Oil on course.
Red and White Cross: Ambulance on course, proceed with caution.
Black with Orange Centre:Road Race Only: Machine to be removed from the circuit immediately. The rider’s number must be shown on a board at the same point as the flag is displayed. Flags must be a minimum size of 24” x 24” (600mm x 600mm).
Black and White Stripe: Oval Track Only, Competitor under protest. The rider’s
number must be shown on a board at the same point as the flag is displayed.
Blue Waved: SX Only. Warning you are about to be lapped.
Blue Waved Road Racing: Overtaking signal warning rider is about to be overtaken.
Blue Held Stationary Road Racing: Indicates that competitor is soon to be overtaken.
6-19-1 Failure to observe flag instructions and signals renders riders liable to fine, exclusion,

If i had a red flag waved at me and i DID NOT know my bike had oil leaking i would carry on to the pit lane as i personally would never be able to interperate that i was the ONLY rider getting a RED flag waved.
I agree there is a gap in communication and training can be improved (with regards to your entry exam for MNZ licence, bring it on ) but if the rule book is what we have to learn then in my eye the rider in question has done all he was expected to do especially if he DID NOT know his bike was creating a hazard on the track. If a marshall was waving a flag frantically i would immediatly (no matter how fast i was riding ) look ahead and possibly miss the further hand direction as a red flag means there is something ahead that may cause me harm.
If the rider leaking oil WAS aware of his leak and crossed the track and continuied to the pits then nothing short of a laser beam in his direction and an account for cleaning the mess up should be presented.

[sinfull]

Black Flag means return to the pits. You have broken the rules and are in trouble with race control.
Black Flag means STOP. Get off the track NOW there is an issue with the bike. Do not go any further.
.

Which one ?
Ok your prolly gonna burn me and make me study something horrid but where the hell on the MNZ site are the flag rules ?