House insulation prices being "inflated".

**James Deuce** · 13th August 2009, 17:12

Originally Posted by Deano

A pair of half socks, while not as good as full socks, are still better than no socks ???

Depends where you wear the socks.

**Deano** · 13th August 2009, 19:58

Originally Posted by James Deuce

Depends where you wear the socks.

It might be coincidence, but around the time we got the underfloor insulation, Rex stopped wearing his socks.

Then again, he is bred from hardy stock.

**westie** · 13th August 2009, 22:59

Sorry mistook you for an educated person.
You have got the wrong product or your fire men mates do. Either way get ya facts right and you wont be wrong.

Originally Posted by JMemonic

Hmm perhaps the concept of question marks was a little misleading, I actually asked a question well several, lets review.

I see that it is apparently non toxic, and does not burn, yet fire service guys tell me it makes putting out cavity fires more difficult.

So its an expanded foam, or is it um expanded air? shredded paper?, the demo I saw where the had some in a cavity that they then cut open it was stated that the product is an expanded foam, and upon reading the website it seems to be an expanded foam, so you are saying its not

I WAS ENDEAVOURING TO DISCOVER MORE ! (that's an exclamation mark, its the opposite of a question mark and denotes a statement)

Ok that yellow stuff in a can said it was non toxic as well.

Yeah we get that, I actually have underfloor and ceiling insulation so had an open mind about this product but now....

**westie** · 13th August 2009, 23:08

Originally Posted by mashman

I'll try getting a few more details and the source of my colleagues information in regards to Expol...

Granted the drain holes don't allow great air movement, but they do let in cold damp air at night as they are open, which kind of negates the reasons for adding insulation to a house, no? Other sources of air movement include the spot light sockets. More often than not when spot lights are fitted, there is no sealing in the ceiling between the fitting and the hole drilled... for fire reasons i've been told... I have changed bulbs in a few houses and everytime i get up there there's a breeze pumping cold air into my face... Again why lag your house when the hot air rises it goes through the exact same gaps as the falling cold air? I thought the idea behind heating a house was to keep warm air inside and not heat the roof space...

Whilst i understand that little air movement can promote moisture build up, where is the moisture coming from other than outside. If you don't have a sealed house, you will end up with moisture coming in from the outside. Granted that's going to happen when you open and close your front door, but allowing it to get in through drain holes and ill thought out ceiling lighting will more than contribute to the moisture problem. We had a sealed house in Scotland, yes colder and damper than here, but we didn't have condensation. There was no insulation anywhere in the house. The only difference i can see between the houses is that we don't have aluminium frames (PVC/Wood), we didn't have drain holes for moisture and we had light fittings that did not allow air to pass through them into the roof space and vice versa for cold air falling into the house and here we have all of the above, but with insulation...

Seriously, why does this happen? Why spend money on insulation if your windows aren't future proof, your light fittings aren't future proof and your house allows cold air in because your doors aren't sealed etc???

Moisture is created when a warm air mass comes in contact with a cold surface. Mostly when in contact with the uninsulated walls. Becoming cooler and falling and becoming more cold exponentially. This creates moisture on windows and mould on walls and ceilings. Moisture in the home also comes from us breathing, sweating and cooking among other sources.
Good curtains will help your heat loss with windows and something to stop warm air falling in behind the curtains from the top(convection currents). Older buildings used pelmets to stop the air flow downwards behind curtains.
The cure is insulation creating a thermal envelope and ventilation.

**James Deuce** · 13th August 2009, 23:15

You're not a westie!

You know "science".

**westie** · 13th August 2009, 23:30

Originally Posted by James Deuce

You're not a westie!

You know "science".

.

**JMemonic** · 14th August 2009, 01:05

Originally Posted by westie

Sorry mistook you for an educated person.
You have got the wrong product or your fire men mates do. Either way get ya facts right and you wont be wrong.

Was not wrong in the first place, let me repeat a question mark (thats one of these in case you forgot ?) denotes a question and in fact how one learns.

Never mind the concept is beyond you I guess. You sure you and I never worked together, your not a Richard Cranium are you? Or perhaps you are.

**mashman** · 14th August 2009, 10:32

Originally Posted by westie

Moisture is created when a warm air mass comes in contact with a cold surface. Mostly when in contact with the uninsulated walls. Becoming cooler and falling and becoming more cold exponentially. This creates moisture on windows and mould on walls and ceilings. Moisture in the home also comes from us breathing, sweating and cooking among other sources.
Good curtains will help your heat loss with windows and something to stop warm air falling in behind the curtains from the top(convection currents). Older buildings used pelmets to stop the air flow downwards behind curtains.
The cure is insulation creating a thermal envelope and ventilation.

Heh, whilst i understand the science behind the creation of moisture/condensation, we have used very good curtains, but the aluminium window frames transfer both warm and cold air. The curtains separating the room from windows don't really make too much of a difference as you're trapping cold air behind the curtains. You mention convection currents. When air behind the curtains is transferred into the room it has to be replaced with the warm air from the room, and it being cold behind the curtains will only cool the warm air and the windows get covered in condensation and the air becomes cold and you have to heat your house more etc... I understand that every little helps, but i'd be very surprised if you could save more than 50 bucks a year by adding, for arguments sake, 4000 bucks worth of insulation materials (under floor and ceiling insulation, as well as high quality curtains)... that to me is not justifyable...

Now don't rag on me as I may well have missed something, but i'm trying to understand how you can call a house future proof and yet still have to heat your house for 10 hours a day in the winter. Like i say i've come from another country and can only assume the building standards over here cater for NZ conditions. I just object to the term future proof when it's anything but, especially when we used to heat the house for 3-4 hours a day when the temperature never rose above -5 all day.

**westie** · 14th August 2009, 18:34

Lol I'm not gonna rag on ya. You want to know and understand things.
The moisture build up is a combined effort of the "Whole House"
Houses should be enveloped in insulation to keep the temperature of the house, furniture and all things inside warm. That way it takes less to heat and re-heat.

In the building you speak of they probably have fully insulated with good materials specific to their purpose and have adequate if not over adequate R values to boot.
They will be properly ventilated also.

In Nz we have a legacy of 100 years of uninsulated homes where the owners shut all the windows to stop the "cold air" from getting in.
I came across one man who had taped plastic over all his windows and stopped and "cold air" getting in. The house was wet with moisture and the air full of mouldy smell. His young daughter also died of a respitory demise.

I agree we shouldn't have to heat our houses so much and yes I agree our building standards have probably been crappy.

Oh and the curtain thing. Pelmets were built above and housed the curtains to stop the flow of warm air down behind the curtains. The curtains should also be run all the way to the floor to help prevent the current occurring too.

Originally Posted by mashman

Heh, whilst i understand the science behind the creation of moisture/condensation, we have used very good curtains, but the aluminium window frames transfer both warm and cold air. The curtains separating the room from windows don't really make too much of a difference as you're trapping cold air behind the curtains. You mention convection currents. When air behind the curtains is transferred into the room it has to be replaced with the warm air from the room, and it being cold behind the curtains will only cool the warm air and the windows get covered in condensation and the air becomes cold and you have to heat your house more etc... I understand that every little helps, but i'd be very surprised if you could save more than 50 bucks a year by adding, for arguments sake, 4000 bucks worth of insulation materials (under floor and ceiling insulation, as well as high quality curtains)... that to me is not justifyable...

Now don't rag on me as I may well have missed something, but i'm trying to understand how you can call a house future proof and yet still have to heat your house for 10 hours a day in the winter. Like i say i've come from another country and can only assume the building standards over here cater for NZ conditions. I just object to the term future proof when it's anything but, especially when we used to heat the house for 3-4 hours a day when the temperature never rose above -5 all day.

**short-circuit** · 21st August 2009, 16:40

Soooooooo was there a consensus regarding the best product to use? With one you risk electrocution, another doesnt breath and therefore rots your floor joists, another will just fall out over time and another is a potential toxic fire hazard!!!!

Whats the best way to go?

**short-circuit** · 22nd August 2009, 11:53

.......Bump

**Morcs** · 22nd August 2009, 14:49

Originally Posted by short-circuit

Soooooooo was there a consensus regarding the best product to use? With one you risk electrocution, another doesnt breath and therefore rots your floor joists, another will just fall out over time and another is a potential toxic fire hazard!!!!

Whats the best way to go?

Get a nice big thick robe.