Six of the best - a punishment thread

[Mikkel]

Agreed, but I can't see that it has slowed the spread of the rot, rather I fear that it may have hastened it. There used to be consequences when one screwed up at a minor level which discouraged advancing to the majors. They were short, sharp, to the point, over and done with and we moved on. To my eyes they seem to have gone.

Oh, there is still a consequence (or at least there should be, and if there isn't, the school system is not the main culprit). But that consequence is not getting beaten up - unless you happen to offend one of the knuckledragging troglodytes and his equally challenged mates who believes in the virtues of vigilante action. Unfortunately, this particular species (Homo Sapiens Vulgaris) is not nearly as endangered as the Strigops habroptila, the really prehistoric Sphenodon punctatus or its name sake the Apteryx.

If you imprint your developing citizens to consider the consequence for violating the rules to be coporal punishment you will only feed the cycle of violence.
Considering that, it is very disconcerting that 45% of NZ's population actually consider "a light smack" part of "good parental correction".

I currently wondering what percentage of P users would take to the ballot if a referendum on whether to make P legal or not was to be made...

Also, where is the SPCC? Even the SPCA should be concerned about this matter...

[Bass]

If you imprint your developing citizens to consider the consequence for violating the rules to be coporal punishment you will only feed the cycle of violence.

See, this is a claim we often hear and on the face of it, would seem to have some grounding in logic.
I have been there and it didn't happen that way.
We were definately imprinted that the consequences of minor indiscretions were painful but there was a lot LESS violence then than now.
Sorry but my experience doesn't support your assertion. I think it had something to do with the respect for authority that went along with it.




(Yeah, I realise my SOH seems to have taken a break at the moment).

[Winston001]

.....I think it had something to do with the respect for authority that went along with it.

Loss of respect throughout society is the nub of the matter. I was in India on an aid project a while ago and the people reminded me of how it was here 30 years ago.

No drunken teenagers leaning out of cars abusing passersby. No street fights. I only saw one possibly drunk person in 3 weeks. Despite the enormous crowding, everyone was polite and well mannered. Eventually I felt safer in Bombay than our own cities.

Why the loss of respect? I don't know but it's our generation, not our kids, who let it happen.

[Mikkel]

See, this is a claim we often hear and on the face of it, would seem to have some grounding in logic.
I have been there and it didn't happen that way.
We were definately imprinted that the consequences of minor indiscretions were painful but there was a lot LESS violence then than now.
Sorry but my experience doesn't support your assertion. I think it had something to do with the respect for authority that went along with it.

Correlation does not equal causality...

And in my experience fear and respect are two very different things, although plenty of people seems to have them confused. Violence, and the threat thereof, does not breed respect - only fear.
I am willing to agree that the touchy-feely-PC-bullshit mentality of today, which turns perpetrators into perceived victims and doesn't provide firm boundaries for what is acceptable and what is not, plays a significant part in this.
But I must maintain that it's not a matter of either you smack people around or you do nothing. A thinking human is able get the point across without resorting the violence.

Using your arguments you can no more dismiss my logical claim than vague assertions such as those concerning the impact of violent movies and video games. Personally, I'd argue that many of the social issues we see today are largely due to the "dilution" of the communal spirit - i.e. today we are all, seemingly, independent of eachother and as such don't feel we have a need for one another. Values have shifted from personal integrity to being more materialistic.

One question, and I think this is important, where did you grow up? And where do you live now? I am fairly confident that the level of violence in, let's say, Darfield hasn't changed significantly over the last 50 years. If you could find a study investigating the correlation between violence and population density I think that could be very interesting.

[Mikkel]

Why the loss of respect? I don't know but it's our generation, not our kids, who let it happen.

Maybe it was because they didn't beat you enough then...

Jokes aside, it is a very important point.

[Bass]

Correlation does not equal causality....

But you claim causality without any correlation which makes even less sense.

And in my experience fear and respect are two very different things, although plenty of people seems to have them confused. Violence, and the threat thereof, does not breed respect - only fear.....

I agree, but we didn't fear these people - we got along very well with some of them. Hell, we had one teacher who used to loan us his car to get to away sports matches. We surely respected them though. Of course we had some teachers who very rarely, if ever, resorted to a sound thrashing, but we didn't think any the less of them when they did.

I am willing to agree that the touchy-feely-PC-bullshit mentality of today, which turns perpetrators into perceived victims and doesn't provide firm boundaries for what is acceptable and what is not, plays a significant part in this.
But I must maintain that it's not a matter of either you smack people around or you do nothing. A thinking human is able get the point across without resorting the violence.

Using your arguments you can no more dismiss my logical claim than vague assertions such as those concerning the impact of violent movies and video games. Personally, I'd argue that many of the social issues we see today are largely due to the "dilution" of the communal spirit - i.e. today we are all, seemingly, independent of eachother and as such don't feel we have a need for one another. Values have shifted from personal integrity to being more materialistic.

One question, and I think this is important, where did you grow up? And where do you live now? I am fairly confident that the level of violence in, let's say, Darfield hasn't changed significantly over the last 50 years. If you could find a study investigating the correlation between violence and population density I think that could be very interesting.

I agree with much of the rest of what you have to say and I grew up in Invercargill which these days is just as rough as Auckland where I now live. I think your comments about community spirit show a degree of maturity although I think that it has more to it than population density. It was certainly a much more egalitarian society that I grew up in.

[Bass]

Loss of respect throughout society is the nub of the matter. .

It's certainly pretty central, but I think it's still just a symptom.

[Mikkel]

But you claim causality without any correlation which makes even less sense.

Yes, my claim that violence begets violence is only just a claim. Alas, there has until this day not been a society where violence has been eradicated, so it's difficult to provide evidence to suggest what it would be like in a society where everybody have had a non-violent upbringing.

On the other hand, if you consider the "less safe" societies on this planet I am rather confident you'll be to establish a correlation between violent upbringing and violent crime - statistically speaking of course. As has been pointed out, not everyone brought up in a violent home proceeds to beat up their own children. Nor is the opposite the truth.

If you and your neighbour both teach your kids that the epitome of rational argumentation is 5-across-the-eyes - then no wonder when they later end up in court or hospital following a petty disagreement. To a large degree it's just monkey see, monkey do with psycology thrown into the mix for good measure.

It was certainly a much more egalitarian society that I grew up in.

There is that as well.