Hampton Downs: is there an issue?

[Robert Taylor]

It's a fair bit different (I'm assuming you're talking about the 'hill' at puke?) but all too much the same. Have you not ridden hampton Tony?
For those that haven't, you crest the hill on the front 'straight' at 220-230ish kph over this 'hump' which will get a superbike/fast 600 airborn a few inches, at least the front will come up, then the track has a light/medium r/h turn that you take flat out (4th/5th gear on the 10) around 250kph?- but there is no runoff to the concrete wall on the outside.
At Puke, the corner is on the crest of a small hill you come over it at (3rd gear) 160ish kph? (someone can correct me here, I've only done puke once...) at full lean (knee on the ground etc) again, almost no runoff to the armco barrier.

How's that sound to you guys?
The speeds are my best guess, I don't really ride around looking at the speedo....

Something akin to that yes. The dynamics are the bike is still tavelling upwards as the rider accelerates over the crest of the hill, but the track is falling away downwards. A few metres before that the bike is ''planting'' itself into the ''upramp'' of the hill and compressing its suspension. The calibration of the suspension has to resist too much compression but also allow enough and to do it in a balanced way.
Now people forget that suspension works in both directions, as the bike travels over that hill and the road drops away its a little akin to ''skating on ice''. The rebound setting has to be fast enough that the tyre finds the track as quickly as possible, but also not so quick that it causes instability on other parts of the track. THERE IS MORE TRACTION ON TARMAC THAN THERE IS IN AIR!!!
The dynamics of travelling up that hill at HD approaching the pit straight will in many ways be similiar. I have suggested in other threads and many conversations that over-slow rebound is arguably one of the biggest contributors to crashing. Over slow rebound takes away traction.

[DEATH_INC.]

Hampton is world class, i know you've traveled the world and been on every track, but lets just not bragg ey?

No, it isn't.
And You don't know what I've done. But this isn't about me. or you. it's about the track.

[BoristheBiter]

4 tracks that is ..

But yes trashy it was very tragic, after meeting the rider afew weeks earlier and racing against him......it was specialy horrible to find out that he was killed.

So before i change my opinion again { aha } i do think hampton downs need to make sure they have made sure the track is as safe as they can make it!

but there is noththing wrong with it right

[Robert Taylor]

All talk of racing and bike set up is all well and good but what you all fail to see is that this and other tracks are used by road riders on road bikes learning to better there skill and therefore will push themselves and their bikes past what they are able to responed to when something goes wrong.

Yes it is good to get your bike set up correctly, mine was set up at puky and handles so much better even on the road but at full noise (well my full noise) the bike still comes up at HD so because of that i am never flat out.

in light of what happened i am glad that i have a new bike that can handle these sorts of things without to much input from myself as the first time i put the front wheel up i crapped myself and dropped the throttle, wrong i know but as i am new and have never had my front come up like that it and it was the natural thing for me to do.

If they are not going to fix the hump/walll/fence then a safer solution will have to be found and until then i will not be back at HD and yes i know some of you like this track and i can see why but our safety is praramount and there is only one way they will listen.

I think that irrespective there is a broad consensus that the hump and the wall are deserving of attention but there is no doubt that for other reasons the crash was avoidable.

With all respect Im not failing to understand the diversity of riders etc. Talking about road race and set up is 100% all well and good as our time in it ( 25 years and counting ) has given us a lot of understanding and that also relates to our major customer base, everyday road riders who are seeking more suspension compliance on our bumpy roads but also with enhanced chassis stability. Plus road riders who are getting involved in trackdays.

I just shake my head at the antics of a trade competitor who has done all but 2 days of formal training of part of a Race Tech course. To try and earn ''bragging capital'' my company has been mocked for pulling racebike suspension apart very very often at race meetings. But what is not understood is that often we are testing development parts for Ohlins, who we have a very special relationship with. And we are not averse neither lazy in pulling stuff apart often to seek better settings as there is always scope to improve and push the boundaries. In concert with the inside information we get from Ohlins as their exclusive NZ distributor what we learn is invaluable. Not only for the Ohlins product but it also assists markedly with setting up oem suspension. We dont claim to know everything but long experience and full and ongoing factory training sure helps.

Not everyone can afford top shelf pedigree brand suspension of even upgrade piston kits but its VERY IMPORTANT that with the oem stuff the settings are as best as they can be for the given situation. Check out my immediate last post, such a scenario of over slow rebound is something we find all the time and really highlights the dangers of maladjustment.

Buying a new bike / latest model is also absolutely no guarantee that suspension woes are expunged. Although you may not realise it yet the high speed rebound valving in the front forks of your GSXR is too weak and at elevated track speeds ( that you may attain as you get more confident ) it causes the bike to ''stand up'' mid corner and run wide on corner exit after you have released the brakes and powered on. Closing in the rebound adjusters at the top ''fudges it'' but then makes the low speed rebound too slow at the last 10% or so of re-extension. That takes away edge grip as you accelerate off the turn. No intention to take the wind out of your sails but this is not only a raceteack scenario, internal recalibration of the shim stack improves the bike on road as well. More compliance, more grip, more control. For clarification on just how well this mod works check out historic threads about it in the suspension section.

The real thing that scares me is we now have bikes that are sharper in steering, have more power and have wider grippier tyres that put a lot more energy into their suspension. I did a motorcycle engineering apprenticeship in the 70s so am abundantly familiar about what was taught about suspension coming up 40 years ago. It has changed little since and I am familiar with the new syllabus, being part of an industry group that oversees it. Commercial reasons or ''advantage'' should dictate that I keep my trap shut about it but in reality things have got to change because frankly the understanding of bike setup at dealer level ( as a whole ) is deplorably bad. There are a few good guys, few being the operative word. And Ill get vilified for saying so, having an ex racer set up your bike is also no guarantee of a good job because in reality very few have a good enough understanding of suspension dynamics beyond rudimentary external clicker and preload settings( it kinda helps! ) The bike that I found to have overslow rebound was ''set up'' by a high profile ex racer from the 80s, a time when there were no adjustments available to speak of.

For any rider we have available a suspension setup and troubleshooting booklet, transmittable by e-mail. Its not a copy of ''War and Peace'' but gives information on cause and effect. We are also available at anytime to answer questions / issues re setup and contrary to some deliberately perpetuated misconceptions we are not there to sell everybody Ohlins suspension come hell or high water. We will help anybody, irrespective of suspension brand fitted.

One thing is for sure, the industry needs to improve immensely in this respect. Another post suggested that Hampton Downs should be shut down until the situation with the hump was sorted, but that it wont happen because its all about earning money. In line with the same thinking how many badly setup bikes have been ridden around on that circuit because the selling dealer wasnt prepared to invest money in having training in the skills of proper bike setup??? Etc etc

Food for thought........

[DEATH_INC.]

I think that irrespective there is a broad consensus that the hump and the wall are deserving of attention but there is no doubt that for other reasons the crash was avoidable.

With all respect Im not failing to understand the diversity of riders etc. Talking about road race and set up is 100% all well and good as our time in it ( 25 years and counting ) has given us a lot of understanding etc...

Not having a go at ya Robert, in fact I agree with a lot of what you say, but I think the track is the real issue rather than suspension issues. Despite what was hopefully a one-off accident, the potential for another at the same place remains. Imagine a group of racers dicing for places coming into that corner....a bit of fairing banging could easily end in the same result. Even without the hump. Even worse if it's wet. Or just a simple mistake. It really needs to be fixed/sorted.

[Robert Taylor]

Not having a go at ya Robert, in fact I agree with a lot of what you say, but I think the track is the real issue rather than suspension issues. Despite what was hopefully a one-off accident, the potential for another at the same place remains. Imagine a group of racers dicing for places coming into that corner....a bit of fairing banging could easily end in the same result. Even without the hump. Even worse if it's wet. Or just a simple mistake. It really needs to be fixed/sorted.

Both are issues, agreed.Im not in any way trying to take blame away from the proximity of the wall to bikes that veer off line but am just highlighting why bikes can do such things as veer off line. Indeed the design of the circuit probably pays more ''respect'' to the car racing fraternity who generally come off a lot better if they make contact with closely displaced walls.

As an adjunct to what I have rattled off in my last post we have talked internally about HD for well over a year. We are not surprised ( for example ) that many riders who have previously spent a lot of time riding at Pukekohe ( then the only track in the greater Auckland area ) have found a whole new raft of machine setup and rapid tyre degradation issues at HD. Pukekohe generally requires a very soft and compliant setup to ride the bumps and is generally also very kind on tyres and will not overly challenge the limitations of oem suspension. Take a bike to HD that feels great at Pukekohe and ride it at speed. It will be a wobbly jelly that screws its tyres very quickly.

The above reasoning and subsequent proof of such assertions is exactly why I went into battle with the ex CEO of MNZ who just didnt get it.

Similarly so for taking a bike off the road and riding at Pukekohe, it was do-able with not too much drama. Now this new circuit with elevation changes and a grippy surface is a whole lot less forgiving of setup that is maladjusted for it.............

The stakes are now higher in machine setup issues and all those involved have to lift their game.

[10bikekid]

Not wanting to interrupt , but Its been suggested that HD is being circulated in the opposite direction to which it was designed, which would make sense considering the pit entrance and exits being opposite to what they should be, (90deg wall on main straight a big no no)

PS, if you back of on the hump that would be bad also.
My Aprilia lifts the front while still being cranked over at about 180- 200kph but I wouldn't dare back off and load up it up on touch down

[Kickaha]

(90deg wall on main straight a big no no)

What 90deg wall?

[CHOPPA]

What 90deg wall?

On the pit entrance, if you turned the corner to tight or got squeezed to the inside you would hit the wall. Sorta the same at manfield if you went wide

[10bikekid]

On the pit entrance, if you turned the corner to tight or got squeezed to the inside you would hit the wall. Sorta the same at manfield if you went wide

At 200 plus Ks Crazy Youd what strong forks to take that

[Brett]

Both are issues, agreed.Im not in any way trying to take blame away from the proximity of the wall to bikes that veer off line but am just highlighting why bikes can do such things as veer off line. Indeed the design of the circuit probably pays more ''respect'' to the car racing fraternity who generally come off a lot better if they make contact with closely displaced walls.

As an adjunct to what I have rattled off in my last post we have talked internally about HD for well over a year. We are not surprised ( for example ) that many riders who have previously spent a lot of time riding at Pukekohe ( then the only track in the greater Auckland area ) have found a whole new raft of machine setup and rapid tyre degradation issues at HD. Pukekohe generally requires a very soft and compliant setup to ride the bumps and is generally also very kind on tyres and will not overly challenge the limitations of oem suspension. Take a bike to HD that feels great at Pukekohe and ride it at speed. It will be a wobbly jelly that screws its tyres very quickly.

The above reasoning and subsequent proof of such assertions is exactly why I went into battle with the ex CEO of MNZ who just didnt get it.

Similarly so for taking a bike off the road and riding at Pukekohe, it was do-able with not too much drama. Now this new circuit with elevation changes and a grippy surface is a whole lot less forgiving of setup that is maladjusted for it.............

The stakes are now higher in machine setup issues and all those involved have to lift their game.

I hear what you are saying Robert. I suppose the question that I would have as a track-day-lover who likes to ride at a quick pace on track but is still predominantly a road rider is whether it is possible to set a bike up well enough to do a reasonable job around the likes of HD and still be a decent bike on the road. I suppose this question is somewhat like the proverbial length of string; can't account for all situations.
My view is simply that I want to go fast and smoothly on the track and have a bit of fun in the twisty stuff on some of the bits of road I enjoy riding, that is I am not a racer and don't really care about shaving 'x' tenths of a second off my time and I am not a road racer, but I want the bike to have feeling and stability.
Or would setting a bike up to be decent on the likes of HD be to the detriment of its road riding feel? (Without throwing thousands of dollars worth of gear on the thing)
I found that the bike could work well on Pukekohe and the road which would agree with your comments about it being a less demanding track.

[BoristheBiter]

I think that irrespective there is a broad consensus that the hump and the wall are deserving of attention but there is no doubt that for other reasons the crash was avoidable.


One thing is for sure, the industry needs to improve immensely in this respect. Another post suggested that Hampton Downs should be shut down until the situation with the hump was sorted, but that it wont happen because its all about earning money. In line with the same thinking how many badly setup bikes have been ridden around on that circuit because the selling dealer wasnt prepared to invest money in having training in the skills of proper bike setup??? Etc etc

Food for thought........

Ummm like thanks for that, so off topic but thanks anyway.

As brett says you set your bike up for HD then have to change it again for on the road then again for Puky then for the road then for Taupo then for the road just to take off 2 sec a lap that i don't care about.

This thread is about what happened to a rider that had problems while riding around a supposedly world class track and if it is safe to ride.

While i understand what you are meaning and it may or may not have been the reason he came off, it is more on what happend after and no setup in the world will protect you from that.

[Robert Taylor]

I hear what you are saying Robert. I suppose the question that I would have as a track-day-lover who likes to ride at a quick pace on track but is still predominantly a road rider is whether it is possible to set a bike up well enough to do a reasonable job around the likes of HD and still be a decent bike on the road. I suppose this question is somewhat like the proverbial length of string; can't account for all situations.
My view is simply that I want to go fast and smoothly on the track and have a bit of fun in the twisty stuff on some of the bits of road I enjoy riding, that is I am not a racer and don't really care about shaving 'x' tenths of a second off my time and I am not a road racer, but I want the bike to have feeling and stability.
Or would setting a bike up to be decent on the likes of HD be to the detriment of its road riding feel? (Without throwing thousands of dollars worth of gear on the thing)
I found that the bike could work well on Pukekohe and the road which would agree with your comments about it being a less demanding track.

Yes youve pretty much nailed the reasonable expectations of many track day riders who also use their bike to ride on the road.

Its all about understanding the suspension adjustments available on the machine and using them to advantage for given situations. Maladjustment is my biggest fear, especially slowing down rebound too much, the biggest common mistake we find. And I believe a big cause of crashing.

Of course there are limitations with many oem suspension units but its all about optimising what you have and recognising the limits. If you get more serious then there are levels of upgrade available from respringing ( often very neccessary with a wide variance of rider heights and weights ) through to reworking the stock internals with different valving and / or piston kits through to complete replacement.

Most often such mods can have as much benefit on the road as well. We often hear ''Im not fast enough for an Ohlins'' ( or whatever other top shelf pedigree brand ) Thats a huge misconception when in fact the best part of our customer base are everyday road riders who are looking for suspension that will actually absorb bumps on our high ratio of bumpy and challenging roads, but still with superb chassis and pitch control.

Whatever, the industry needs to do more to educate customers about the importance of well adjusted suspension or more to the point the very real dangers of very badly adjusted suspension. If we dont there will be more central Government regulation in our lives.

[Robert Taylor]

Ummm like thanks for that, so off topic but thanks anyway.

As brett says you set your bike up for HD then have to change it again for on the road then again for Puky then for the road then for Taupo then for the road just to take off 2 sec a lap that i don't care about.

This thread is about what happened to a rider that had problems while riding around a supposedly world class track and if it is safe to ride.

While i understand what you are meaning and it may or may not have been the reason he came off, it is more on what happend after and no setup in the world will protect you from that.

No, its all totally relevant and its not just about lap times. To my mind this is also about what set off the accident, a not unrelevant point

[Robert Taylor]

Not wanting to interrupt , but Its been suggested that HD is being circulated in the opposite direction to which it was designed, which would make sense considering the pit entrance and exits being opposite to what they should be, (90deg wall on main straight a big no no)

PS, if you back of on the hump that would be bad also.
My Aprilia lifts the front while still being cranked over at about 180- 200kph but I wouldn't dare back off and load up it up on touch down

Its lifting the front wheel ( in part ) because there is not enough low speed compression squat control in the rear shock. Or your personal stats may not match the fitted spring rate.