Moto Guzzi drive train failure

**MotoKuzzi** · 2nd September 2009, 08:09

My Guzzi makes a whirring noise and won't drive when the clutch is let out. At first it sounded like it was from gearbox / clutch area but the noise is also there when I push it and seems to be from the diff end rather than the front.
Before I start pulling things apart does any one have any suggestions as to the likely cause?

**SS90** · 2nd September 2009, 08:33

OH crikey mate!

The most likely cause is your universal joint.

From experience it should have felt like a coffee grinder under your foot for the last 100Km or so, before letting go (if indeed that is what happened)

The fact that it does it when you are pushing it points in that direction.

I know that the Cali's (sometimes) had a problem with the clutch letting go (twin plates, and I have seen a couple of examples where the centre spline rips out of the rear plate) but I don't think that is the problem with yours.

10 years ago (I was working on the last of the carbed cali's and the first of the injected ones when they where new), gosh I'm getting old....... a Universal Joint was NZ$500, so it may be a little more now.

If it is, shop around, Aussie have a bigger market, and are able to operate on smaller margins.

Though it always good to support your distributor (if they are realistic aye!)

The other thing I have seen is the rear spline on the drive shaft tear out the splines, due to the fact that there was no grease on there (causing fretting), which eventually strips the splines there.

That could also be a possibilty.

I am guessing it has done a few KM's by now, so it's quite acceptable to do a Universal joint about every, 70,000 KM's

**MotoKuzzi** · 2nd September 2009, 08:49

Thanks for that. I have just listened to it by rotating the wheel on the centre stand. Definitely in the diff area, rumbly noise, I haven't noticed anything unusual vibration wise under the feet( there's so much there anyway ). It's had more backlash lately though.

**nudemetalz** · 2nd September 2009, 09:39

You been giving the diff oil changes?
All it needs is about 300mls.

**MotoKuzzi** · 2nd September 2009, 15:03

Originally Posted by SS90

The other thing I have seen is the rear spline on the drive shaft tear out the splines, due to the fact that there was no grease on there (causing fretting), which eventually strips the splines there.

That could also be a possibilty.

I am guessing it has done a few KM's by now, so it's quite acceptable to do a Universal joint about every, 70,000 KM's

Spot on mate. Spline into diff f..kd and same for the sleeve that connects the shaft to the diff. Dry as a bone yet the upper splines look well lubed and almost new. Don't know whether it got overlooked at the last service or they need more attention. She's got 86,000km on now. What are my options do you think?

**Paul in NZ** · 2nd September 2009, 19:28

Originally Posted by MotoKuzzi

Spot on mate. Spline into diff f..kd and same for the sleeve that connects the shaft to the diff. Dry as a bone yet the upper splines look well lubed and almost new. Don't know whether it got overlooked at the last service or they need more attention. She's got 86,000km on now. What are my options do you think?

If it's the spline at the diff end - OUCH! Stand by for a good old fashioned reaming because you replace the pinion and crown wheel as a set and it's about the most expensive part on a Guzzi... AND it needs to be set up properly or you will root it double quick!

If it's the drive shaft our coupler - no worries.

Call Pete at Moto Kiwi - he will sort you out the fastest.

The dealie is - every time you change a tyre, drop the rear drive and lube those splines, takes 10 mins.

**MotoKuzzi** · 2nd September 2009, 19:46

Originally Posted by Paul in NZ

If it's the spline at the diff end - OUCH! Stand by for a good old fashioned reaming because you replace the pinion and crown wheel as a set and it's about the most expensive part on a Guzzi... AND it needs to be set up properly or you will root it double quick!

If it's the drive shaft our coupler - no worries.

Call Pete at Moto Kiwi - he will sort you out the fastest.

The dealie is - every time you change a tyre, drop the rear drive and lube those splines, takes 10 mins.

It's both unfortunately. Pete has said the diff end spline can be built up which is an option I had been considering. I don't know whats possible but if it can be mounted in a lathe and machined to take a splined sleeve to mate to the drive shaft or built up and re splined it is bound to be cheaper than new. I know one thing I'll never ignore it again. Although looking at the wear in both the sleeve and the spline it's got to have been going on for longer than the 25k Ive done on it.

**Paul in NZ** · 2nd September 2009, 20:23

Originally Posted by MotoKuzzi

It's both unfortunately. Pete has said the diff end spline can be built up which is an option I had been considering. I don't know whats possible but if it can be mounted in a lathe and machined to take a splined sleeve to mate to the drive shaft or built up and re splined it is bound to be cheaper than new. I know one thing I'll never ignore it again. Although looking at the wear in both the sleeve and the spline it's got to have been going on for longer than the 25k Ive done on it.

Probably - not uncommon to be assembled dry at the factory and missed during dealer set up.

The coupling is (in theory) the sacrificial part but the lubes there to keep it from rusting. It rusts, impact powders the rust, it rusts some more...

Petes the man - I'd go with his suggestion or see if you can find a used one?

**Molly** · 2nd September 2009, 20:26

Glad I happened upon this thread. My V11 is going to have a pre-summer sort out and I'm bloody sure it'll now included a good lube of those splines.

Sorry it went tits up mate.

**MotoKuzzi** · 2nd September 2009, 20:59

Originally Posted by Molly

Glad I happened upon this thread. My V11 is going to have a pre-summer sort out and I'm bloody sure it'll now included a good lube of those splines.

Sorry it went tits up mate.

So am I, figured it would have been regularly serviced before I bought it and I've only done 25k in 2 yrs. Bikes done 86k all up.

**Paul in NZ** · 3rd September 2009, 05:47

Originally Posted by Molly

Glad I happened upon this thread. My V11 is going to have a pre-summer sort out and I'm bloody sure it'll now included a good lube of those splines.

Sorry it went tits up mate.

V11 has a different set up and you have to make really sure you line them up properly - theres heaps of info about it on the web but I never paid much attention cos I don't own one ;-)

**SS90** · 3rd September 2009, 06:26

Originally Posted by Paul in NZ

If it's the spline at the diff end - OUCH! Stand by for a good old fashioned reaming because you replace the pinion and crown wheel as a set and it's about the most expensive part on a Guzzi... AND it needs to be set up properly or you will root it double quick!

If it's the drive shaft our coupler - no worries.

Call Pete at Moto Kiwi - he will sort you out the fastest.

The dealie is - every time you change a tyre, drop the rear drive and lube those splines, takes 10 mins.

Yea, that's a bitch!

A real word of warning here, (I'll put it in capitals, just to look cool) NEVER EVER USE "COPPERSLIP" ON THOSE SPLINES

10,000Km's later, pukarooed (not me, a mate), but we all learned a lesson!

When I was working on new Guzzi's (1995 till 2000) we never ONCE pulled off a drive box to check for grease (it's not actually part of the predelivery........ my god, are you supposed to strip the whole bike?

Yea, for sure, every time you put a tyre on, lube the spline, and also, put a LIGHT smear of good quality grease on the hub that the wheel sits on (drive hub) or the same will happen to that.

From memory we did pull all the rear wheels off and lube those ones though, or they actually "squeaked" when you pushed them around the workshop!

Just a slight smear though, because the grease will melt, and you will fool yourself into thinking that you have a leaking seal!

The best grease money can buy (and it is a lot of money to buy this grease) is made especially for BMW

They use it on their clutch hubs and drive splines, and they actually recommend removing the gear box and relubing the clutch spline every 80,000 km's!

It's a special white Moly based stuff, it's not cheap, but I know it works!

Yes, you can repair the spline, but if you hunt around you will find someting at a good price.

If they are greased correctly, those splines last over 500,000 KMS (experience on that one) it's only lack of maintenance that kill them!

**MotoKuzzi** · 3rd September 2009, 08:28

Originally Posted by SS90

......If they are greased correctly, those splines last over 500,000 KMS (experience on that one) it's only lack of maintenance that kill them!

Good to know!! I was thinking of looking at the G/Box end while I'm doing this other stuff. Is there a universal joint in there? or splined sleeve like the lower end. How difficult would it be to remove the clutch for a look as well?

**SS90** · 3rd September 2009, 09:13

Yea, there is a Universal Joint there.

They are a pretty hardy item in all truth.

I know that they do cost HEAPS new in NZ (Europe is about HALF the NZ price last time I checked, and Aussie is pretty good too)

From memory, expect........150,000KM to 200,000KM from a cali UJ that hasn't been "slogged" around town it's whole life.

I am pretty sure you can go to a car place, and they can replace the cross and the bearings (I think they are form a Subaru or something) and it is quite cheap.

I have never had that done, so I can't comment.

I think I saw a price of NZ$750 for a UJ one time, and that is just robbery....... they are MUCH cheaper in Europe!

anyway, I found this just now (I havn't read it, but a quick flick seems correct)

Hope it helps!

http://www.mgnoc.com/article_califor...intenance.html

The Cali is not to difficult to strip out and get to the clutch.

I assume it's injected, (if it's carbed, it's a little easier, so just take a note of where the fuel hoses go, and it is fairly straight forward really, basically, after removing the swing arm you unbolt the frame (Gotta love Tonti for this design aye!) and you end up with a box under the sump, a scissor jack under the gear box and lift the frame off the engine/gearbox assembly.

With experience 2 hours is enough to get it to that point, but sure, allow a little longer for your first one!

simply unbolt the gearbox, and you will see a seperate spline/gear sitting in the middle of the clutch hub, which the input shaft of the gear box meshes with.

Essentially a gear with an internal spline.

Apply some of that special BMW grease to the internal spline and the external gear (not too much of course, it's a dry clutch!)

It would be a good idea to inspect both your clutch plates then, if there is no signs of cracks on the hubs, and the wear is ok, I would just inspect the seal behind the clutch (just to be safe, if it's not leaking, it's sweet as!)

If you got a workshop to do that, I recon 1 day is correct.

I have done a few Cali clutches in my day, and I can honestly say 1 day is correct.