Fail: Sea Shepherd

[Pixie]

When I first saw the footage on TV I thought the wee boat was trying to get some more biodeisel

Don't tell anyone, the "Biodiesel" is whale oil

[Fatjim]

I hope the fuckers get done for littering.

[terbang]

Stick to ya physics Mikkel. If someone took something, something that you were harvesting for yourself (legally making money from it) from your own back yard without your permission and sold it in the next town you would call them a thief, right? Whether it grew wild or you planted it, its still your back yard. New Zealand has territorial waters, like any other country that has a coastline and like many it also specifies an economic zone. In simple terms, if you want to make money (like fishing) inside the economic zone, then you have to have the permission of the owners. In the case of NZ some do have permission and others don't.

Though I flew for Australian customs on fisheries, drug, piracy and immigration issues mainly related to the Australian AEEZ and mainly up north in the Timor and Arafura, we also did work around NZ because the Kiwis have no money and can't properly do it for themselves. Making them a weak drug entry point into Australia. So we not only had to be versed in Australian, but also know some NZ fisheries protection laws as well. We got to see it all from a birds eye view through some very expensive and sophisticated surveillance equipment. Stuff Kiwis are yet to get. I personally, though based in Darwin, got to do a lot of the NZ flights because I knew the lay of the land.

When we found some bad guys in Australian waters, they were caught and sometimes sent to the bottom. Mainly they went to jail. This is because the aussies have an excellent fleet of customs and maritime patrol vessels. They do it pretty well right, with laws that have teeth. We found em, gathered the evidence and they (people in military or customs boats) arrested them with the necessary force .

When making strategic patrols in NZ waters, including those portions of the southern ocean, we had scant naval support. We found them (large jap and other fishing vessels, not approved) in their droves in NZ waters. Sometimes very close in and in the sovereign territory as well. Especially by night. We had Kiwi fisheries guys on board who were generally beside themselves with rage at the impunity of these people taking a resource for NZers, from the NZers (legal) back yard and yet helpless to do anything about it. Yeah even the Aussie crews were shocked at what they saw.

Most Kiwis have found the odd bit of flotsam on a beach with asian characters inscribed on it, some have a fisherman mate who tells a few stories as well, or some of the Airline pilots who ply the main trunk see a bit too, but generally that is about the only indication that they will ever get as to what is really happening over the horizon. Its big business to them, they donate shit loads of charity to Tonga, stroke the stupid Kings ego and a blind eye is taken to their activities in Tongan waters. Waters that NZ and Australia give money to help protect.
They also know we (NZ) are helpless to police our own back yard. So its basically open season all year around.
They have fished their own backyards out long ago and now they are doing it to ours and the tragic thing is that we can't even afford to stop them.

I'm not about saving whales and that at all and don't really have much of an opinion on who really rammed who. Though I do admire their conviction in putting their "money where their mouths are".
However I do care about the impact that illegal fishing (and its happening wholesale, Ive seen it) in NZ waters has on our commercial and recreational fisheries. We don't need a slide rule and a physicist to figure that one out.

Narp, fuck em, just send them to the bottom (if we can afford to).

[puddytat]

Hey, I've an idea....lets go & do some scientific research in their territorial waters or thier fuckin' sanctuaries.....
The Japs arrogance astounds me & the people on here who slag every fucker who tries to go out & fight "them" or "whoever' saddens me.
Do you remember the Rainbow warrior? I think most kiwis were affronted mostly by that act of Frances arrogance & disregard for our rights & counrty.But those little boats made a big fucking differance .And still are.
So some greenies go & chain themselves to a cargo ship full of palm kernel shit...& I read of the sentiment expressed on that subject supporting what the French did ,& suggesting that they should sort the Greenies out again.....
Now we haqve Kiwis down there standing up for what they believe in, who on an awesome Kiwi boat that was a world record holding machine, crewed by Kiwis, gets rammed by fuckin Nips who are giving not just us but all other countries who are part of Sanctuary area the finger & continue to hunt & fish illegally in other countries territory.
And you fuckers slag them off for trying to stop that? Dont you have any morals? Or did "you " already sell out to the man long ago?
Im so tired of the self centered selfishness of so many.

[Skyryder]

Sort of like this clip - it gives a better view of deliberate ramming.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDsZcLVXyn8

Clip showed a collision between two vessels. There was no evidence that I could see that the Sea Shepherd 'deliberatly rammed the other vessel. I'm not saying they did not but i saw no evidence that they did. Perhaps if the camera had filmed the wake of Sea Shepherd that might have shown a deliberate intent to ram but from the clip it did not. Not proof for me..................but possible that's the best you'll get from me and I'm being generouse here.


Skyryder

[LBD]

Go to Marsden point a watch a wee little tug nudge a supertanker alongside, Pull on a mooring line of a 500T fishing boat, watch a container ship trying to berth in windy weather you'd be surprised what a little force can do to a floating object.

There are several posts that compare a small tug boat assisting a large ship to manouvre, with the force of an impact....lets dispell any similarity now.

In an collision there is a momentarily transfer of energy from one vessel to the other at the moment of impact and then thats it....no more forces.

A harbour tug on the other hand comes alongside the ship gently as possible, squares up on and on the pilots request applies a constant force to the side of the ship, the tug will move the ship side ways.... after a time of constantly applying what ever portion of the tugs bollard pull the pilot has requested. ( usually described as Bare weight, 1/4, 1/2 and full with a "push" or "pull" prefix)

The "wee little tug" I drove for 6 years was only 24.5 m long had 2 x 3512 Cats with twin 360 degree Ulstein Drives and had a 36.5 tonne Bollard pull....quite some wee toy, that happily pushed 40 000 ton ships around.

Someone mentioned bow thrusters? In the 70's the container ship Nedloyd Houtman came into Lyttleton after a record 21 days from Europe. The Lyttleton harbour tug Godley was square on the shoulder pushing full, and the ships bow thruster pushed the Godley astern....That was one serious thruster.

And I go home on Tuesday so will get to see the videos then and if this thread is still active....I vow to take on Skyrider...both barrels blazing......(Unless I end up agreeing with him after seeing the evidence)

[jonbuoy]

Sustained thrust versus impact. The situations are not comparable.

An ant could move Jupiter given enough time...

And just for the record - tugs may be small, but they do not constitute a small force. They are the tractors of the sea. Have a look at these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tug#Tugboat_propulsion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bollard_pull

I know check my signature

[Pixie]

Every tosser's talking about "our territorial waters".It was in Antarctic waters ffs

[terbang]

I subscribe to the theory that it's a lot easier for a big boat to run over a little boat, causing it grave damage, than the other way around.

[terbang]

Every tosser's talking about "our territorial waters".It was in Antarctic waters ffs

Every tosser, hmm, yeah right, OK... You need to do some more home work there my friend. Do a search on the CCAMLAR.

[cs363]

Every tosser, hmm, yeah right... You need to do some more home work there my friend. Do a search on the CCAMLAR. ffs

One A too many there, it's CCAMLR
Here's a quick link to the Wikipedia page showing the signatories (which I believe was the point terbang was making): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convent...ving_Resources

[RantyDave]

Let's get this silly notion of the Shonan Maru 2 being deflected by the Ady Gil dispelled - it is an affront to reason.

I wasn't going to reply to this ill educated claptrap but then someone called it an affront to reason and I more or less had do.

The Ady Gil weighed 13 tons, the Shonan Maru 2 has a rated tonnage of 491 DWT.

Anyone who, considering these figures, still entertain the idea of the collision deflecting the Japanese vessel is beyond reason.

Or educated. We're not talking about two ball bearings hitting each other in a schoolboy's textbook here and neither is anyone claiming the Shonan Maru was deflected sideways by any reasonable amount. What happened was the Ady Gil (carrying, let's say, 15-20 knots) hit the Shonan Maru on the starboard bow. That means the front, and on the right hand side 'kay? The force of the collision was expressed on the Shonan Maru as a torque, being the product of force (lots, we can tell from what it did to the bow of the Ady Gil and what happened to the water around the Ady Gil when the collision happened) and distance from the centre of gravity (which, given that the Shonan Maru is kinda long is also lots). The Shonan Maru would then experience an angular acceleration inversely proportional to it's second moment of inertia and obviously, once actually yawing, resisted by various hydrodynamic phenomena or, in English, slowed down by the water.

The point is that something very heavy hit a long way from the centre of gravity so it would twist. It won't move sideways much because of the relative weights of the two vessels, but it sure as shit will yaw to port. Had it hit midships (or wherever the CoG actually is) then your ill educated yet curiously elitist argument would hold up.

Dave

[RantyDave]

We are talking about a weight ration of about 38:1 - how much do you expect to be able to change the direction of a 38 ton truck in a 1 ton car?

Is the truck pivoted in the middle?

The fact that the Ady Gil didn't just shatter into a million pieces is clear evidence that the forward momentum of the Ady Gil relative to the hull of the Shonan Maru 2 was negligible.

Why would it shatter? It's made of Kevlar - a material designed to absorb loads from collisions. Go find out what bullet proof vests are made of. The Ady Gil, in it's "Earthrace" guise would have been designed to survive (or mostly survive) a full speed collision with a semi-submerged object. A lost shipping container or (ironically) a whale. That it remained on the surface long enough for the hippies to bail is a testament to this fact.

The Ady Gil didn't shatter because someone (A Naval Architect) did their job.

Dave

[RantyDave]

In fact SS have claimed that the Jap boat ignored their distress calls after the ramming.

Sea Shepherd had a "proper" ship close enough to film what happened. Why would the Japanese need to fish them out the water?

[RantyDave]

his radar would have informed him of the close proximity of another vessel.

No, the radar is mounted high on the ship to move the horizon further out. Because radar is a narrow beam this leads to a blind spot around the ship. Ever heard the expression "flying under the radar"? That's exactly what it means. The Ady Gil would not have been visible on the radar. That being said they clearly knew *exactly* where it was.