"New Zealand Stinks"

[Jamezo]

O really?

They're not scare tactics. The reality is that if you want to achieve a non-polluting society, that is what it will take.

I really don't give two figs, so long as I can feed my family and improve my lifestyle. Isn't that what I was sold when I was growing up? If the Greens were even faintly commited to achieving the goals they lay out, their first goal would be to remove all forms of personal transportation. That includes motorcycles, and push bikes The process of creating and running individually owned vehicles is incredibly wasteful. It is certainly what I would target as the easiest way of reducing resource usage. But I fear I've said some things that people don't want to hear. Bugger. No one will vote for me.

You are utterly wrong in your assumption that there are a "million" ways to change things. The type of change required to avoid the future you describe requires wholesale change to individual freedoms in regard to transport, living space, work environment, the type of work people do, clothing, and entertainment. The reality is that just about everything you do requires some input from the "evil" petrochemical industries that you despise. And I'll bet you willingly pay for it. You've definitely got SEP syndrome. If you are not willing to take a stand, and only wear homespun clothing, walk everywhere, only make music with instruments you carved from drift wood, and only eat food you grow yourself, then you are the same as me. You don't care.

I don't think you're quite feeling me here. I don't want to make wholesale changes to our lifestyle, though I realise the costs of everything we do and consume. I just want to reduce the amount of outright waste and greed, so that future generations may enjoy all that we do.

I never described a 'no more bicycles' situation, you did! life is about comprimises, I'm sure even the greens would recognise the lesser of two evils.

[TwoSeven]

How many people here actually know what the term 'vested interest' means?

Just in case.

an interest in which there is a fixed right to present or future enjoyment and that can be conveyed to another groups that seek to control a social system or activity from which they derive private benefit.

New Zealand is what’s called a 2nd order industrial nation with a focus on agricultural and mechanical output. Basically, farm labour and machinery – yes there are examples of alternatives, but not as a general trend.

A vested interest often occurs in this kind of industry when there is little or no foreign competition to force the modernisation of industrial process which would cause most companies into a continuous cycle of technology investment, modernisation, higher productivity with reduce industrial waste. Instead, the vested interest allows companies to lobby government so that they can continue diverting funds from modernisation to profit taking. We can see this happening in telecommunications and the power industry.

Because of its isolation New Zealand also sufferers from lack of communication which tends to lead to hick ignorance about technology and industry, you can tell by the outmoded views that people have here about issues such as greenism that during the 60s and 70s was the playing ground of the unionists, socialists and communists, but is now the domain of the capitalist bio-tech and research fields (part of the policies of New Labour). Most of NZ still holds the views of the 70s brigade - simply because there has been no exposure to modern technology.

Isolationism also presents itself in the stigma of 'tall poppy syndrome' which is a manifestation of reluctance to change - a typical tendency of a mechanical farming culture during a period of stability. Those who are proponents of change are seen as radical and fringe lunatic and ostracised, with those who are successful (even if they are just doing what people in other countries do every day) are seen as guru's and heroes to be worshiped.

The agricultural revolution that is still highly prevalent in New Zealand occurred in the UK in the 18th century. One of the big events during that period was the development of technology such as the gig mill in the late 1790s which ended the error of specialist cottage industry that had been wide spread during earlier times. This is occurring now in New Zealand with the introduction of modern technologies such as bio-tech and alternative fuels – industries which threaten to undercut the old style coal and energy production methods that depend on it. The resultant backlash of the introduction of technology during this 18th century era in the UK was represented most by the actions of the frame breakers – a movement was involved in a semi-political backlash in that they partook of smashing the frames belonging to the mills that were putting them out of business – Members signed their proclamations ‘Ned Ludd of Sherwood forest’ and hence formed the luddite movement.

As I said above – modern greenism is primarily involved in using technology and science to investigate and improve the production of goods without producing environmental waste – as an alternative means it also focuses on creating business that can make a profit in processing and recycling waste and negative output from other business. For example laws in Germany that require all auto makers to produce recyclable vehicles as produced an entire new industry of firms that specialise in that side of the industry the result is the price of vehicles dropped significantly as the technology improvement that was achieved fed back into society over time. UK legislation that requires a focus to be put on alternative energy as resulted in a new industry of wave generation and wind generation production facilities that is resulting in a lower cost of electricity production from that segment which in turn is passing on its savings to industry segments with high electricity requirements. Likewise the US government has legislated a 10% dependency of bio-fuels that has a direct flow on for consumer generated demand for fuel thru to the suppliers of the sunflower oil that the fuels are made from. A move beneficial for both US farmers who will be unable to supply the entire market and third world countries that are able to fill the resultant demand at a low cost of production.

Without continued exposure to foreign markets and the pressures of industrial change that would be exerted from them, New Zealand really needs to change from within in order to keep and maintain a technological advantage in other areas outside of agriculture. Greenism is a mechanism for providing that internal pressure but is being effectively combated by the vested interests of the industrial coal fired luddite brigade and the general ignorance of the local population. Those that are reluctant to change because there are simply kept ignorant of the benefits that could be seized upon should they so desire to commit to such self improvement. Thus I think the social desire of the local luddite for the secure ness of what they know over what they don’t know will doom them to gradually slide down the poverty scale as the rest of society continues to advance around them. We can already see the gap between the richer and poorer starting to occur with the throes of government trying to hide this inequality by producing more and more legislation and it is also mirrored in the battles of the telecommunications and power industries that are also firm in their reluctance to change forcing the technology gap to also have an impact, yet it is quite clear that if basic education was provided to teach the luddite local to be a proponent of change, there would be a marked change in the fortunes of this country.

[James Deuce]

How many people here actually know what the term 'vested interest' means?

Just in case.



New Zealand is what’s called a 2nd order industrial nation with a focus on agricultural and mechanical output. Basically, farm labour and machinery – yes there are examples of alternatives, but not as a general trend.

A vested interest often occurs in this kind of industry when there is little or no foreign competition to force the modernisation of industrial process which would cause most companies into a continuous cycle of technology investment, modernisation, higher productivity with reduce industrial waste. Instead, the vested interest allows companies to lobby government so that they can continue diverting funds from modernisation to profit taking. We can see this happening in telecommunications and the power industry.

Because of its isolation New Zealand also sufferers from lack of communication which tends to lead to hick ignorance about technology and industry, you can tell by the outmoded views that people have here about issues such as greenism that during the 60s and 70s was the playing ground of the unionists, socialists and communists, but is now the domain of the capitalist bio-tech and research fields (part of the policies of New Labour). Most of NZ still holds the views of the 70s brigade - simply because there has been no exposure to modern technology.

Isolationism also presents itself in the stigma of 'tall poppy syndrome' which is a manifestation of reluctance to change - a typical tendency of a mechanical farming culture during a period of stability. Those who are proponents of change are seen as radical and fringe lunatic and ostracised, with those who are successful (even if they are just doing what people in other countries do every day) are seen as guru's and heroes to be worshiped.

The agricultural revolution that is still highly prevalent in New Zealand occurred in the UK in the 18th century. One of the big events during that period was the development of technology such as the gig mill in the late 1790s which ended the error of specialist cottage industry that had been wide spread during earlier times. This is occurring now in New Zealand with the introduction of modern technologies such as bio-tech and alternative fuels – industries which threaten to undercut the old style coal and energy production methods that depend on it. The resultant backlash of the introduction of technology during this 18th century era in the UK was represented most by the actions of the frame breakers – a movement was involved in a semi-political backlash in that they partook of smashing the frames belonging to the mills that were putting them out of business – Members signed their proclamations ‘Ned Ludd of Sherwood forest’ and hence formed the luddite movement.

As I said above – modern greenism is primarily involved in using technology and science to investigate and improve the production of goods without producing environmental waste – as an alternative means it also focuses on creating business that can make a profit in processing and recycling waste and negative output from other business. For example laws in Germany that require all auto makers to produce recyclable vehicles as produced an entire new industry of firms that specialise in that side of the industry the result is the price of vehicles dropped significantly as the technology improvement that was achieved fed back into society over time. UK legislation that requires a focus to be put on alternative energy as resulted in a new industry of wave generation and wind generation production facilities that is resulting in a lower cost of electricity production from that segment which in turn is passing on its savings to industry segments with high electricity requirements. Likewise the US government has legislated a 10% dependency of bio-fuels that has a direct flow on for consumer generated demand for fuel thru to the suppliers of the sunflower oil that the fuels are made from. A move beneficial for both US farmers who will be unable to supply the entire market and third world countries that are able to fill the resultant demand at a low cost of production.

Without continued exposure to foreign markets and the pressures of industrial change that would be exerted from them, New Zealand really needs to change from within in order to keep and maintain a technological advantage in other areas outside of agriculture. Greenism is a mechanism for providing that internal pressure but is being effectively combated by the vested interests of the industrial coal fired luddite brigade and the general ignorance of the local population. Those that are reluctant to change because there are simply kept ignorant of the benefits that could be seized upon should they so desire to commit to such self improvement. Thus I think the social desire of the local luddite for the secure ness of what they know over what they don’t know will doom them to gradually slide down the poverty scale as the rest of society continues to advance around them. We can already see the gap between the richer and poorer starting to occur with the throes of government trying to hide this inequality by producing more and more legislation and it is also mirrored in the battles of the telecommunications and power industries that are also firm in their reluctance to change forcing the technology gap to also have an impact, yet it is quite clear that if basic education was provided to teach the luddite local to be a proponent of change, there would be a marked change in the fortunes of this country.

I thought the "On Colonial Duty" tag line indicated an arrogant snob, and by hokey I was right.

Hurry up and go home please.

[James Deuce]

I don't think you're quite feeling me here. I don't want to make wholesale changes to our lifestyle, though I realise the costs of everything we do and consume. I just want to reduce the amount of outright waste and greed, so that future generations may enjoy all that we do.

I never described a 'no more bicycles' situation, you did! life is about comprimises, I'm sure even the greens would recognise the lesser of two evils.

Two Seven's approach is the lesser of two evils, however there is no median line in this issue. There are polarised views and attitudes that haven't begun to attempt to find a happy medium, and I don't think most people have even begun to think what sort of an impact wholesale "greenism" will have upon their current lifestyle. Until you stop buying stuff that has petrochemicals in it nothing will change. Recycling is not the answer as that just shifts the form of the waste until it can be recycled no more. It is a temporary solution at best.

As for NZers being stupid and under educated Two Seven, you couldn't be more wrong, but then I can't convince you of that because most people from the "home country" view us a cute little fuckwits with no idea.

Ever heard of conductive polymers? The was a stupid hick from Pongaroa that made that work.

[TwoSeven]

As for NZers being stupid and under educated Two Seven, you couldn't be more wrong, but then I can't convince you of that because most people from the "home country" view us a cute little fuckwits with no idea.

I dont believe I actually said people here are stupid but if you have self doubt in your own beliefs and foster the idea that people here are stupid and fuckwits then thats your opinion not mine.

However, making plastic conductive was not invented by someone in new zealand and I cant find any information to say that any of the work was funded by new zealand or a new zealand institute. A brief examination of thhe history of polyacetylene shows the initial work being done by a japanese man with the nobel prize being given to three individuals who were working in the US. One of the members having been born in NZ but educated mainly overseas. I believe the technology of conductive plastic (polymers) is of american origin.

But this does re-enfornce my view that exposre to foreign competitive pressures is a good thing does it not ?

[Jamezo]

ok, well that's all very nice. but all the technological and market-driven solutions under the sun won't work if people are apathetic about the state of teh planetz0r.

people won't care about introducing more efficient technologies if they are largely unaware of the issues facing us, or if they plain just couldn't care either way. there needs to be a change in the popular conscience for any meaningful progress towards efficiency is made.

and I can't type that well, my right arm is broken.... 16 days till I'm castless! I broke it pretty damn good... radius and ulna clean in two, steel plates holding 'em together. two wicked scars!