"New Zealand Stinks"

[Pixie]

arghgh! it's attitudes like this that are actively condemning our grandchildren to eking out an existence on a shattered hulk of a planet.

I assume you mean 'anthropogenic'; a stunning display of your ability to (mis)use big words, while not quite comprehending exactly what you are saying. are you implying that an 'industry' can somehow arise out of thin air; and not be created by man?

are you aware of the highly concerted effort to undermine climate change science? publicly and not-so-publically bankrolled by, you guessed it, oil corporations and car manufacturers. they provide arguments as to how climate change science exists only to perpetuate itself, and also try to refute irrefutable data about what is happening to our planet. they are promoting ignorant business-as-usual attitudes, out of a fear of denting the Holy GDP/share price. way to go guys...

ok, the kyoto protocol is a huge steaming crock. but it's a start in taking responsibility for the survival of our species. personally, I am not too fussed about an increase in atmospheric carbon/temperature. what I care more about is the greedy, irresponsible plundering of irreplaceable natural resources. dammit, I want my kids to be able to afford petrol for their bikes, but thanks to 50 years of penis-size-engine-capacity bullshit, and absolutely PATHETIC fuel efficiency standards (in the US, SUVs are exempt from meeting even these, as they are classified as light trucks. go figure), that is becoming increasingly unlikely.

we cannot sustain this greed and ignorance! take your head out of the sand!

Oh ,obviously a struggler (general believer in conspiracies ,anti globalisation,protesting etc.)
Anthropogenetic global warming has not been proven,though if you wish to do research to prove it false you would be pushing shit up hill to try and get funding.
All the funding goes to proving it is true ,in spite of some major inconsistancies in the theory.That is why it's the "Global warming industry."
Spectrographic analysis of Mars has shown a similar rise in global temperatures as is occurring on Earth.
Among others ;David Bellamy and the fellow who put forward the Gaia Hypothesis (his name escapes me ) the father of the green movement,do not support anthropogenetic global warming.
How come after 9/11,when airlines over the U.S. were grounded for weeks,
did satellite data show a noticable increase in temperature over the U.S.?

Do research before you believe anything you are told.

[Pixie]

The Earth is NOT a closed system. The energy of the Moon's orbit predicates weather for decades ahead, and a drop in particular type of solar activity, such as sunspots or solar flares can mean things like a drop in Ozone in the upper atmosphere, and man with his little goldfish like memory for cataclysms forgetting what solar flares can do to electronics in a geosynchronous orbit. Global warming is a naturally occuring phenomena. Oceans do not rise because ice caps melt, they rise because liquids have greater volume as their energy state changes on the way to becoming a vapour. Excited atoms take up more room. Even David Bellamy, a committed long term conservationist, doesn't accept that man has precipitated the recent slight upward trend in global temperatures. More CO2 leaks out of the Mid-Atlantic trench in a week than man produces in a decade.

Conspiracies are mammothly less likely than complete and utter screw ups. Conspiracy theorists are amusing. Greens in power makes my skin crawl.

I applaud you for understanding the cause of sea level rise-Augie Auer apparently can't when he said that an ice cube in a glass does not raise the level of water in the glass when it melts

[Pixie]

arghgh! it's attitudes like this that are actively condemning our grandchildren to eking out an existence on a shattered hulk of a planet.

I assume you mean 'anthropogenic'; a stunning display of your ability to (mis)use big words, while not quite comprehending exactly what you are saying. are you implying that an 'industry' can somehow arise out of thin air; and not be created by man?

are you aware of the highly concerted effort to undermine climate change science? publicly and not-so-publically bankrolled by, you guessed it, oil corporations and car manufacturers. they provide arguments as to how climate change science exists only to perpetuate itself, and also try to refute irrefutable data about what is happening to our planet. they are promoting ignorant business-as-usual attitudes, out of a fear of denting the Holy GDP/share price. way to go guys...
ok, the kyoto protocol is a huge steaming crock. but it's a start in taking responsibility for the survival of our species. personally, I am not too fussed about an increase in atmospheric carbon/temperature. what I care more about is the greedy, irresponsible plundering of irreplaceable natural resources. dammit, I want my kids to be able to afford petrol for their bikes, but thanks to 50 years of penis-size-engine-capacity bullshit, and absolutely PATHETIC fuel efficiency standards (in the US, SUVs are exempt from meeting even these, as they are classified as light trucks. go figure), that is becoming increasingly unlikely.

we cannot sustain this greed and ignorance! take your head out of the sand!

By the way... when are you going to sell the filthy polluting motorcycle?

[Pixie]

Thanks for the constructive input.



Ahh - our old friend again Mr Gross Generalisation.

You have me mistaken-I'm Mr. Svelte Generalisation.

[Brian d marge]

It's called paraphrasing, you literal clodhopper.

It also refers to the single minded application of a particular view contrary to scientific, spiritual, or popular belief. A dogmatic approach to old fashioned values and technology, despite the constant of change.

????

AND?????
to restate my question for the challanged ,,where does Ludditism come into that post ??
or was it fired off without much thought given

Mr Clod hopper if you dont mind ( As I like to keep the distinction clear)

Stephen

[Jamezo]

fun...

Oceans do not rise because ice caps melt, they rise because liquids have greater volume as their energy state changes on the way to becoming a vapour. Excited atoms take up more room.

perfectly true. when did I even mention ice caps? doesn't matter, the ocean temp./volume relationship is pretty linear.

More CO2 leaks out of the Mid-Atlantic trench in a week than man produces in a decade.

net? I would not believe that without seeing something to back it up. the ocean as a whole is constantly absorbing and releasing CO2. surely you know that the ocean has been buffering the recent increase in CO2 levels (source nonwithstanding), sheilding something in the order of 80% of atmospheric releases, and increasing the acidity as a result.

Conspiracies are mammothly less likely than complete and utter screw ups. Conspiracy theorists are amusing. Greens in power makes my skin crawl.

no conspiracy required? just the natural and understandable actions of those with power defending their bottom line.

I still don't see how Hitcher thinks I am in need of a secondary school science edumacation to discuss this. show me the scientific or logical errors.

forgetting the science, what of the plain moral issues like excessive greed and the general 'fuck everybody else' attitude with regard to environmental problems?

[Blakamin]

Spectrographic analysis of Mars has shown a similar rise in global temperatures as is occurring on Earth.

does that mean the martians had too many V8s?????

[Jamezo]

Oh ,obviously a struggler (general believer in conspiracies ,anti globalisation,protesting etc.)
Anthropogenetic global warming has not been proven,though if you wish to do research to prove it false you would be pushing shit up hill to try and get funding.
All the funding goes to proving it is true ,in spite of some major inconsistancies in the theory.That is why it's the "Global warming industry."
Spectrographic analysis of Mars has shown a similar rise in global temperatures as is occurring on Earth.
Among others ;David Bellamy and the fellow who put forward the Gaia Hypothesis (his name escapes me ) the father of the green movement,do not support anthropogenetic global warming.
How come after 9/11,when airlines over the U.S. were grounded for weeks,
did satellite data show a noticable increase in temperature over the U.S.?

Do research before you believe anything you are told.

interesting food for thought, never heard that before. let's think. which could have the greater immediate effect on local temperatures? a slight dip in CO2 production (the concentration of which is not localised), or, for example, the sudden absence of aircraft contrails in the immediate area. option B has my vote

what I would conclude from puzzles like this, is that more research needs to be done in the area, not less.

[James Deuce]

fun...



perfectly true. when did I even mention ice caps? doesn't matter, the ocean temp./volume relationship is pretty linear.



net? I would not believe that without seeing something to back it up. the ocean as a whole is constantly absorbing and releasing CO2. surely you know that the ocean has been buffering the recent increase in CO2 levels (source nonwithstanding), sheilding something in the order of 80% of atmospheric releases, and increasing the acidity as a result.



no conspiracy required? just the natural and understandable actions of those with power defending their bottom line.

I still don't see how Hitcher thinks I am in need of a secondary school science edumacation to discuss this. show me the scientific or logical errors.

forgetting the science, what of the plain moral issues like excessive greed and the general 'fuck everybody else' attitude with regard to environmental problems?

Absolutely, fuck everybody else. The only way to fix the "problem" is for millions upon millions of people to die. It's all very well to preach about the "rapacious greed", but we've gone well past the point of ever going back to the idyllic pastoral lifestyle that never existed, without reducing basic quality of life back to the nice 40% infant mortality rates of not very long ago. I'd rather my kids lived to an extreme and happy old age, than die of starvation when the Greens pull the plug on everything that causes pollution. What I want to know is how the Greens plan to plug up volcanoes, and how they expect old and young people to live through winter if they aren't allowed light fires in their Hobbit burrows and caves. There won't be any solar power, or fuell cells, because the technology required to produce them pollutes. Oh, and your world will be reduced to the span of what you can walk, because no form of transport can be created without pollution. Horses are banned because of excessive methane by the way.

The Mid-Atlantic trench is in a "burp" phase and has overwhelmed the Atlantic's ability to buffer CO2. Surely you know that. You'd also know that it has contributed to the Atlantic plankton die off, and the drastic consequences that has had for the food chain in the ocean. The Greenies have long blamed over fishing, but there are other contributing factors as well.

Augie Auer is actually correct. The Ice has already displaced 99.8% of the water it is going to displace and it is not enough to appreciably raise the temperature of the water itself. However if you artificially raise the temperature of the water 1degC (which the overstated Greenhouse Gas effect can cause - I say over stated because it is natural. It would happen with our without us.), which in itself takes a tremendous amount of energy in relation to the energy stored in the water, you begin to run into volumetric issues. There are cycles recorded in geological strata across the spread of what humans would regard as a habitable planet where the Earth's mean temp has ranged from -20degC to +60degC. The magnetic poles have flipped more than once too, and at various times anything from 20 feet above what we call sea level was innundated because of warm oceans.

The only constant is change, and the only constant of humanity is that we will continue to overuse resource, and continue to adapt to the consequences.

[James Deuce]

????

AND?????
to restate my question for the challanged ,,where does Ludditism come into that post ??
or was it fired off without much thought given

Mr Clod hopper if you dont mind ( As I like to keep the distinction clear)

Stephen

Roger. "Mr" it is.

[Jamezo]

Jim2, now yuo are being teh sillay manturnip! I thought you were above ridiculous scare tactics. not even the Greens want a situation anything like you describe.

I know what I want, I just want to arrest the outright rape and pillage of our ONLY planet. you speak of wanting to sustain our lifestyle? that's just great, but there are a million ways we can help avoid that frightening vision you described being imposed on future generations, not because of chosen frugality, but an absolute depletion of resources. it would not be pretty. and I'll be damned if I'll sit back and let some rich old guys hasten that day for their personal gain.

[James Deuce]

Jim2, now yuo are being teh sillay manturnip! I thought you were above ridiculous scare tactics. not even the Greens want a situation anything like you describe.

I know what I want, I just want to arrest the outright rape and pillage of our ONLY planet. you speak of wanting to sustain our lifestyle? that's just great, but there are a million ways we can help avoid that frightening vision you described being imposed on future generations, not because of chosen frugality, but an absolute depletion of resources. it would not be pretty. and I'll be damned if I'll sit back and let some rich old guys hasten that day for their personal gain.

O really?

They're not scare tactics. The reality is that if you want to achieve a non-polluting society, that is what it will take.

I really don't give two figs, so long as I can feed my family and improve my lifestyle. Isn't that what I was sold when I was growing up? If the Greens were even faintly commited to achieving the goals they lay out, their first goal would be to remove all forms of personal transportation. That includes motorcycles, and push bikes The process of creating and running individually owned vehicles is incredibly wasteful. It is certainly what I would target as the easiest way of reducing resource usage. But I fear I've said some things that people don't want to hear. Bugger. No one will vote for me.

You are utterly wrong in your assumption that there are a "million" ways to change things. The type of change required to avoid the future you describe requires wholesale change to individual freedoms in regard to transport, living space, work environment, the type of work people do, clothing, and entertainment. The reality is that just about everything you do requires some input from the "evil" petrochemical industries that you despise. And I'll bet you willingly pay for it. You've definitely got SEP syndrome. If you are not willing to take a stand, and only wear homespun clothing, walk everywhere, only make music with instruments you carved from drift wood, and only eat food you grow yourself, then you are the same as me. You don't care.

[Gremlin]

You don't care.

Brutal, blunt but pretty true. However, by even doing a little, it can make a difference if everybody is just doing a little here and there.

How many people then, by that definition actually care??

Lets face it, there are a lot of people who don't have much to do. They need something to do.

As long as the planet lasts for me, I'm OK

And thats exactly why we are supposedly heading for disaster...

[danb]

Brutal, blunt but pretty true. However, by even doing a little, it can make a difference if everybody is just doing a little here and there.

How many people then, by that definition actually care??

Lets face it, there are a lot of people who don't have much to do. They need something to do.

As long as the planet lasts for me, I'm OK

And thats exactly why we are supposedly heading for disaster...

And I suppose you dont have any kids or dont want kids.

[Gremlin]

And I suppose you dont have any kids or dont want kids.

nope, not a single ankle biter in sight, nor in the near future. I'm all alone, except for my "loved" girl. And she's a little heavy in bed. Makes it much easier, and nice and biased.

Although having a kid would mean that "something" has happened. I wouldn't mind that part. Just none of those "beautiful" biker chicks please...

I would like the good bits, and none of the bad bits...