Effing newspapers!

[Skyryder]

You are making yourself look foolish with your rantings. The world's media has "let the cat out of the bag" as it were, and JK has simply (& honestly) stated that someone is on active duty in Afganistan. This location was also leaked by the world media.
Big deal.

Honesty.
What your beloved helen (or cullen) could never be accused of...

Nothing foolish in sticking it to Key. Not for me.

No......... John Key did not simply state that someone was on active service he identified the individual for his own personal reasons. That’s the issue. Like I’ve always said. Keys’s nothing but a cunt and that is not a word I use lightly, and this issue proves it. That’s the galling bit for the Key apologists. They know I’m right and the best theycan do is try and tack this onto Labour. That's the foolish bit. This issue has nothing to do with Labour Clarke, and now Cullen. Surprised you have not blamed the tooth fairy.

Skyryder

[nudemetalz]

Yippee yay....lets disband the SAS now !!! No need for them after this bombshell (bad choice of words !!)

[R6_kid:Me]

They're spending all that time in Afghanistan as NZ's best trained war fighters, and they haven't even fired a shot? That's like taking a race bike to the track and just leaving it in the pits. Sounds to me like they are just there to eat their lunches!

[nudemetalz]

You really believe they haven't fired a shot?
Me thinks they have

[DougieNZ]

I can't believe this has turned in to a "bash Key" thread. Lets stick with the "my gun is bigger than yours" and "this calibre of round is no good" stuff - much more entertaining.

The damage was done here by the media publishing the photo with two SAS members faces in it. Yiu can't stop the photographer taking the photo. But the Herald and other media organisations deliberately sought it out and published it. THAT is where the problem started. Any imbicile could see who was in the photo when the image wasn't blurred. You wouldn't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that one out!!! So what key did was not wrong by any means. The problem started when the photo was published. It clearly pinpointed the NZSAS and where they were operating - with what weapons etc etc.

Imagine what kudos the terrorists would get by cap[turing/killing an infidel VC.

Now you might argue that Apiata deserves everything he gets because he paraded himself around the country with his gong pinned to his chest... but the obvious question is - why should an award for extreme bravcery cost him his career in the SAS? I am sure it wasn't his idea to do the publicity thing. The whole thing should have been held off until he left the SAS.

A bit silly, isn't it. "Here is your VC. Well done. Oh - by the way your ops career is over and you will now be sitting behind a desk for the rest of your time with the SAS counting paper clips".

This is typical Kiwi tall poppy stuff......

I am totally pissed off with the millitary brass now. They not only make the decision to parade this guy around the country while an active SAS member, now they feel that they have to show overhead photos or operations and discuss exactly with the SAS are or are not doing. This would be sort of understandable of the current Chief of Defence was NOT A FORMER SAS MEMBER. Come on Jerry - how would you have felt if that was members of your team plastered all over the NZ media? This whole thing has proven - give the media an inch and they want a mile!! Key and CDF are currently digging themselves a bigger and bigger hole. JUST SAY NO COMMENT!!!

We have rapists and child molesters in this country getting name/photo supression all the time. The media respect that and comply without complaint - right or wrong. On the other hand we have a guy who has done some heroic stuff identified along with his mate while on active duty - doubtless placing their lives at risk... Don't we have our priorities wrong here?

[Skyryder]

I can only come to the conclusion that the Key apologists support his confirmation and the reason for it. And yet this makes a mockery of condemning the publication of the photo. You can not in all credibility condemn one and make 'excuses' for the other.

Skyryder

he(Key) identified the individual for his own personal reasons. That’s the issue.
Skyryder

I can't believe this has turned in to a "bash Key" thread. Lets stick with the "my gun is bigger than yours" and "this calibre of round is no good" stuff - much more entertaining.

The damage was done here by the media publishing the photo with two SAS members faces in it. Yiu can't stop the photographer taking the photo. But the Herald and other media organisations deliberately sought it out and published it. THAT is where the problem started. Any imbicile could see who was in the photo when the image wasn't blurred. You wouldn't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that one out!!!

I am totally pissed off with the millitary brass now. They not only make the decision to parade this guy around the country while an active SAS member, now they feel that they have to show overhead photos or operations and discuss exactly with the SAS are or are not doing. This would be sort of understandable of the current Chief of Defence was NOT A FORMER SAS MEMBER. Come on Jerry - how would you have felt if that was members of your team plastered all over the NZ media? This whole thing has proven - give the media an inch and they want a mile!! Key and CDF are currently digging themselves a bigger and bigger hole. JUST SAY NO COMMENT!!!

That's what I said. NO COMMENT. Key could not say that.

The decision to inform the media on SAS operations and deployment issues is a Government decison not a miltary one.

Skyryder

[peasea]

I can't believe this has turned in to a "bash Key" thread. Lets stick with the "my gun is bigger than yours" and "this calibre of round is no good" stuff - much more entertaining.

The damage was done here by the media publishing the photo with two SAS members faces in it. Yiu can't stop the photographer taking the photo. But the Herald and other media organisations deliberately sought it out and published it. THAT is where the problem started. Any imbicile could see who was in the photo when the image wasn't blurred. You wouldn't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that one out!!! So what key did was not wrong by any means. The problem started when the photo was published. It clearly pinpointed the NZSAS and where they were operating - with what weapons etc etc.

Imagine what kudos the terrorists would get by cap[turing/killing an infidel VC.

Now you might argue that Apiata deserves everything he gets because he paraded himself around the country with his gong pinned to his chest... but the obvious question is - why should an award for extreme bravcery cost him his career in the SAS? I am sure it wasn't his idea to do the publicity thing. The whole thing should have been held off until he left the SAS.

A bit silly, isn't it. "Here is your VC. Well done. Oh - by the way your ops career is over and you will now be sitting behind a desk for the rest of your time with the SAS counting paper clips".

This is typical Kiwi tall poppy stuff......

I am totally pissed off with the millitary brass now. They not only make the decision to parade this guy around the country while an active SAS member, now they feel that they have to show overhead photos or operations and discuss exactly with the SAS are or are not doing. This would be sort of understandable of the current Chief of Defence was NOT A FORMER SAS MEMBER. Come on Jerry - how would you have felt if that was members of your team plastered all over the NZ media? This whole thing has proven - give the media an inch and they want a mile!! Key and CDF are currently digging themselves a bigger and bigger hole. JUST SAY NO COMMENT!!!

We have rapists and child molesters in this country getting name/photo supression all the time. The media respect that and comply without complaint - right or wrong. On the other hand we have a guy who has done some heroic stuff identified along with his mate while on active duty - doubtless placing their lives at risk... Don't we have our priorities wrong here?

Good post and good points, especially suggesting that the VC wait until Apiata's SAS term was over. Just put it on record, wait for him to retire or get a desk job (yeah right) and THEN give him the award, the publicity and the status. Then he could have happily gone about his business with everyone blissfully unaware he was a hero and therefore not a target. Well, not such a big one anyway....

PS: Fuck the NZ Herald, twats.

[Winston001]

I don't think we can get anywhere arguing about Apiata's VC publicity. Its the first time I've ever heard of an active duty SAS award (British or otherwise) but it's happened. Possibly the Brits and NZ military decided it was time to get some good publicity.

As for the published photo, maybe I'm naive but it simply showed two soldiers on a street in Kabul. One may have been an Afghanistani (Apiata with a beard). The main reason we know a lot more is because of the NZ Herald for whom I have complete contempt. Yes it could have been in foreign papers but why would they bother to publish - just another war pic. I do agree with Skyryder that John Key should have simply said "No comment".

Finally on the subject of Victoria Crosses, there is one glaring omission in SAS history - that of no VC being awarded posthumously to Fijian Talaiasi Labalaba after the Battle of Mirbat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mirbat. This is an example of how the SAS formerly operated - no gongs, all very secret. And unfair from my armchair point of view.

[Winston001]

One reason is the tolerances. Like with a formula one vs your family car, one has way higher tolerances and therefor run more reliably and consistently, the other one performs a lot better but only takes a bit of dust sucked in and it will destroy itself. Sand works in through parts in a high tech rifle and can easily cause issues.....

Thanks for the good explanation which makes sense. I suppose a robust assault rifle which takes a lot of abuse must sacrifice accuracy.

There is an interesting discussion regarding 5.56 vs 7.62 here http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread27560/pg1
One poster points out that Paul Mauser developed his rifle in 1898 and it was accurate out to 2000 yards (meters). Makes the current asault rifles look pretty wimpy with an accurate range around 400m. Ok, further for marksmen but still....

During the Boer War (1899 - 1902) soldier's lines were a mile apart (1700m) and the ordinary soldier was firing at and hitting the other side.

I appreciate modern warfare ranges from tiny streets to deserts to jungle. One size rifle does not fit all. Even so an accurate long gun over 1000m is surely worth having.

[Dave Lobster]

This is an example of how the SAS formerly operated - no gongs, all very secret. And unfair from my armchair point of view.

I don't know anyone with a VC. But I've worked with several people with a QGM, including my former tp sgt. And I've worked with member of the SAS on CT jobs.
Nobody joins up to collect gongs. Nobody does things that merit a gong, in order to get one. Anyone that feels aggrieved that they've not received a gallantry medal is probably in the mob for the wrong reasons.

[sAsLEX]

And unfair from my armchair point of view.

Do they want, ask or care for a gong?

Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.

I would think most aren't there for the glory.