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Thread: New national school standards?

  1. #31
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    Sorry, team, this is long...

    I taught Primary School for over a decade some twenty five years ago. Even then, we always knew if a kid was up to par or not. That is easy. I don't think that is the problem. There have always been kids who are good at something and kids who are bad at that thing. This will always be the case because every human ability is distrubuted in much the same way - over a "normal curve" for those who know statistics. So some will always be better at some things than others. Not everyone is capable of running a four minute mile and not everyone is a mathematical genius. Identifying this is nothing new.

    National standards will just identify this yet again. They will do nothing to fix the problem which is what we all want. Labelling a problem doesn't fix it.

    In my time in education there were also good and bad teachers. There was always a group of teachers who were there because they couldn't think of anything else to do when they left school. They were generally uncaring and often damn lazy to boot. I taught with quite a few of them. Thankfully, not many of them stayed in teaching for long.

    There were also the plain incompetent ones. I had to deal with a few of them too, especially when I was a senior teacher and was responsible for such teachers. In one particular case, my principal made me work with a useless bugger to prevent him being kicked out. My job was, basically, to save his arse. I told the principal that I would be doing education a favour if he failed. I still believe he should have failed. But the pressure was on and I did save his arse. Probably to the eternal detriment of the kids he taught after that...He did all the paperwork right but just did not "get" kids. He was fuckin' useless.

    I suspect this has not changed much.

    Eventually I left teaching. For several reasons. I was, I believe, a good teacher. My kids had a helluva lot of fun at school and so did I. They progressed in most subjects. I was damn good at teaching maths and did manage to produce one young man who went on to very great heights in computer maths, thanks to the fact that we identified him as having extra ability and fed him stuff to realise his potential. He was seven when I taught him.

    But even I couldn't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. We had kids starting school who could barely communicate verbally, let alone know one end of a book from the other. Why? Because they had been neglected from birth. They had barely been spoken to let alone conversed with or had books read to them or even been paid any attention. A teacher can only work with the material he/she is presented with. You can't make concrete without cement. When it comes to language skills, the whole basis of language is listening and speaking. You cannot go to reading and writing until the "natural" side of language is in place (Listening and Speaking is what I mean here). That HAS to be in place. And if the kid has not developed that by five years of age they will almost always lag behind. So mum and dad need to do their share as well. Education starts at home and the very basis of learning is set there.

    I got fed up with that. Being given stick because i couldn't fix parental neglect pissed me off.

    I also got sick of educational administrators - chair warmers who had never been at the coal face. They spent all their time dreaming up ways of making themselves look like they were essential. They reinvented some wheel or other every year. "Oh this year we are going to change the XYZ syllabus!" Great. Same old stuff with new labels mostly. "School Maths" was a big project back then. But essentially, all you need is addition and subtraction (multiplication and division is just repeated addition and subtraction BTW) and some measurement. Again, changing the labels did not change the content. What the kids needed to know was still the same. But those admin people wanted to disrupt it every year...

    Lack of resources was another issue. One year I had a profoundly deaf girl in my class. If I could have worked with her one on one, we could have made great progress. She was bright enough to do anything. But I had thirty-one others to teach as well. She got ONE HOUR PER WEEK of specialist one on one time. Fucking useless. This is but one example of an ever recurring problem. I got sick of that too.

    And, because I was a successful classroom teacher, I was always under pressure to climb the promotional ladder. I didn't want that. I loved classroom practice. I didn't want to drive an office. But the pressure was always there and I got sick of that too.

    Finally there was the issue of pay. Rates back then were low. Because of my quals, I was paid at the top of the A Scale. But it was hard going with two kids and a non earning wife. I got sick of that too.

    So there you have it.

    My conclusions:

    1. Some kids will always be better than others and some will always be worse than others in ANY human ability. We will never get them all the same and nor should we even try. The best we can do is fully realise each kid's potential whatever that may be.
    2. Get rid of any incompetent teachers.
    3. Pay the good teachers well enough to retain them.
    4. Put enough resources into the schools to allow special input where it is needed.
    5. Measuring a problem doesn't fix it.
    . “No pleasure is worth giving up for two more years in a rest home.” Kingsley Amis

  2. #32
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    slofox can I then ask you this question then. Do YOU feel a child must have good ENGLISH communication skills before they get to school ?
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swoop View Post
    Huh? I am all in favour of changing the current system. I also like the way Tolley is going about it as well... "Here are your standards to work to". IF that was put to a think-tank, then a committee, then another committee, then a working party, it would be watered down to something that was crap and didn't work... just like what we have now.
    NCEA isn't as fabulous as they would have you believe and the whole education pipeline needs a revamp.
    Fair cop, I was being a bit grumpy yesterday. My apologies for being rude... However, one of the reasons people aren't keen on this is the way Tolley is going about it, from being a bit misleading about the surveyed support, f'rinstance, ignoring expert opinion, or not even doing a pilot. It's not like we don't already have assessment systems, so she's not going to fix the problem this way. And consulting on big changes tends to produce better systems - it's hardly going to make a crap system better if it's rammed through as this has been.

    My comment about NCEA is based on my direct personal experience, not what "they" would have me believe. I genuinely think performance-based assessment is better than norm-based. My son's report last year was easy to understand, and showed where he did well, and where he needs to work harder this year. What they're teaching is good and to a good standard, the teachers are very good - and almost all work way harder for more shit and less money than almost everyone else I know. NZ Education as I experience it is a marvellous thing. But I accept that is not the case everywhere. Might pay to wonder on why that is?

    Quote Originally Posted by slofox View Post
    My conclusions:

    1. Some kids will always be better than others and some will always be worse than others in ANY human ability. We will never get them all the same and nor should we even try. The best we can do is fully realise each kid's potential whatever that may be.
    2. Get rid of any incompetent teachers.
    3. Pay the good teachers well enough to retain them.
    4. Put enough resources into the schools to allow special input where it is needed.
    5. Measuring a problem doesn't fix it.
    Some good conslusions there. Chief problem with #2 (and #3, to an extent) is the overwhelming prevalence of hopelessly incompetent management, and intrinsic difficulty in measuring teacher perfomance. What happens to the good teacher who is given a horror class of undisciplined low performers? Or the opposite case? Teaching is difficult, it's not like truck driving or sales or office management or IT.

    Quote Originally Posted by FROSTY View Post
    slofox can I then ask you this question then. Do YOU feel a child must have good ENGLISH communication skills before they get to school ?
    I know you're asking slofox, but I was here so I thought I'd jump in... Yes, that would be nice, but what to do if it is not the case? Keep them at home? Same question can be applied at college age: should kids starting at college have basic numeracy and literacy? Yes, sure, but, what do you do with the ones who don't?
    Redefining slow since 2006...

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by FROSTY View Post
    slofox can I then ask you this question then. Do YOU feel a child must have good ENGLISH communication skills before they get to school ?
    In a word, Yes.

    First and foremost though, they must be able to communicate in whatever langauge they speak. The essential bit is that "natural language" I mentioned - the ability to listen to and speak to others in whatever language. If they have that, they can learn English. Hell, we had immigrant kids turn up without English skills but with communication skills, they picked up the English bit soon enough with a little extra help. Having said that, given that English is the lingua franca round here, it sure as hell helps. Unless they are in some immersion school in another language.

    If they turn up at school aged five, without much of that communication ability, then they are five years behind everyone else and in deep shit. So is the new entrant teacher, although I did see the odd miracle worked by such teachers. But more often, the kid was always behind forever after.

    Hope this answers your question Frosty.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by rainman View Post



    Some good conslusions there. Chief problem with #2 (and #3, to an extent) is the overwhelming prevalence of hopelessly incompetent management, and intrinsic difficulty in measuring teacher perfomance. What happens to the good teacher who is given a horror class of undisciplined low performers? Or the opposite case? Teaching is difficult, it's not like truck driving or sales or office management or IT.


    Agreed. It ain't easy.
    . “No pleasure is worth giving up for two more years in a rest home.” Kingsley Amis

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by kave View Post
    A number of reasons for having a wah.

    2. Schools will be ranked in league tables (for why this is a bad thing see http://www.wellingtoncollege.org.uk/page.aspx?id=5114 ). It will encourage teaching to the exam. Schools will be fighting for higher rankings in league tables and exam preperation will come before actually teaching kids useful stuff. We already have excessive testing at primary schools.
    This I don't get. Any ranking system isn't taking the ability of the student into consideration and isn't finding out what the student can or can't do. Ranking a school, teacher or student against each other is only showing how much crap some are.

    Dunno if it's changed but back in '97 when I was in 6th form is was a bloody joke. Average 60% throughout the year and end up with a '5' because that's all that was allocated to the subject. What does that prove to anyone? It doesn't show my ability. It only shows that morons the year before were shit and didn't get good grades.

    As for testing based on exams only....shit hold me back. This is a no-go zone for me. I always found it was like cheating when we went over past exams so we knew all the questions that could be asked.

    Know the material, adapt to the question. Teachers shouldn't know exam material. That'll sort out the lazy ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quasievil View Post
    I think its good, the point of children not being graded is stupid, if you suck at maths reading etc then it should be transparent for the child to see and the parent to see, currently when we get our boys school reports they dont mean shit as they are so PC " Jonny is a good boy with great abilities and is improving through the year" what the fuck does that mean?? Gauging against the national average is better.
    When I was a kid it was 50% over you passed, under you failed.........simple easy and transparent.
    Give me both, mark and comments. But don't sugar coat it. At the moment I don't like the idea of being told someone has "achieved" something. I wanna know if they know it well or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by FROSTY View Post
    The joke of high school where if not enough kids passthe math test so we adjust it down reads to me as -Ohh we fucked up this year so we'll fudge the results so half pass
    Well from someone on the receiving end of this in when I was in 7th form, I can say it saved my ass big time. I went from failing 3 subjects to passing all and getting a b-bursary (and $100/year for 3 years).

    But totally agree with you, absolutely shit. On a whole I went up 20 marks. That was a shitload and a mate who was an A student lost 20 marks. That's crap really. Marks should be marks. Who benefits from adjustment?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by slofox View Post
    ...
    My conclusions:

    1. Some kids will always be better than others and some will always be worse than others in ANY human ability. We will never get them all the same and nor should we even try. The best we can do is fully realise each kid's potential whatever that may be.
    2. Get rid of any incompetent teachers.
    3. Pay the good teachers well enough to retain them.
    4. Put enough resources into the schools to allow special input where it is needed.
    5. Measuring a problem doesn't fix it.
    #1 is one of the reasons I believe in streaming classes. Abilities are divided and you can tailor tuition to suit. This may be because I always went to schools that did this. Primary school was interesting. We were taken aside if we showed we excelled in something and pushed harder.

    Would I think this way if I didn't excel and was in fact below average? Went through this as well. Got put in a muppet class full of muppets and was told by the muppet teacher only 2 would pass. I wasn't one of them.

    Which emphasises #2, 3 and 4. If we had a better teacher, more would have passed.

    This is why parents who have a choice send their kids to the best schools and the school keeps getting better.

    A question: Would people be prepared to increase their tax by 1% if it meant we improved our schools (read: ability of teachers) by, say, 50%?

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ckai View Post
    At the moment I don't like the idea of being told someone has "achieved" something. I wanna know if they know it well or not.
    That's called "Merit", or maybe "Excellence"...
    Redefining slow since 2006...

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    Quote Originally Posted by rainman View Post
    That's called "Merit", or maybe "Excellence"...
    True, but it is very cut and dry between grades and as has been mentioned the exact criteria for these grades can be adjusted to ensure only the top 5% or so attain excellence. What is wrong with having an assessment that has a potential to score 100points the score can then easily be converted into a percentage For that years test the mean and median score can be published and therefore a true picture of the candidates prowess/ability is indicated compared to the rest of the nation.

    Failing that a test involving a simple algebraic equation reveals a number that is the page to turn to in a book.

    Reading that book leads to a set of instructions in the third paragraph.

    They read "when the men with machine guns come through the door and say 'everybody stand up' you must lay on the floor and put your fingers in your ears"

    The men with machine guns will then open fire on everyone standing. This will remove everyone who does not a) meet the national standard for numeracy, b) meet the NS for literacy, c) follow government issued instructions (to avoid confusion the men with guns should wear t-shirts stating 'I am not from the government')
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by KiWiP View Post
    True, but it is very cut and dry between grades and as has been mentioned the exact criteria for these grades can be adjusted to ensure only the top 5% or so attain excellence. What is wrong with having an assessment that has a potential to score 100points the score can then easily be converted into a percentage For that years test the mean and median score can be published and therefore a true picture of the candidates prowess/ability is indicated compared to the rest of the nation.
    You do know that the old system wasn't an absolute result, right, and was routinely adjusted to match the historical achievement profile? Leaving aside the fact that tests vary from event to event, so you're not getting an absolute assessment no matter what. NCEA actually does less of this result-fudging, being standard-based. Maybe there should be an NCEA achievement standard in understanding testing systems!

    The original thread is about the new nat stds for Y1-8 though. The fundamental problem with "absolute" testing there is that kids develop at such different rates. Example: my neighbour's kid was barely talking when he started Y1, but has now caught up (verbally and with regard to literacy generally) some years later. Would he have scored well according to nat stds at, say, Y2? Not a hope in hell. Did his teachers do an excellent job in bringing him up to speed by Y6? Absolutely. What conclusions could you have sensibly drawn about teaching quality from national standards? None.

    It's just the Nats having an ideological beatup of a highly unionised workforce. (For most of us, they're not actually on our side. They just talk a good game).

    Quote Originally Posted by KiWiP View Post
    Failing that a test involving a simple algebraic equation reveals a number that is the page to turn to in a book.
    ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virago View Post
    From what I can gather, the problem is that children are to be assessed and graded against national averages?

    This will of course grade many as below average, which flies in the face of our education system, which grades all children as "above average". The entire NCEA system is based on that premise.
    This is a common misconception - these national standards are minimum expectations...a check to see if kid x is going to come out with the basic skills required to have a shit show at life.

    Quote Originally Posted by ckai View Post
    This I don't get. Any ranking system isn't taking the ability of the student into consideration and isn't finding out what the student can or can't do. Ranking a school, teacher or student against each other is only showing how much crap some are.
    Yeah, but the trouble is it's not a level playing field looking at the results they put out. What we need is a way of actually assessing the value any given school adds.

    Interestingly the lefties' favourite Kenyan American is tying increased school funding to performance evaluation of teachers...not that the provisional wing of the teachers unions* would let that stand for a moment after they got re-elected.

    *commonly known as the Labour Party
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by rainman View Post
    That's called "Merit", or maybe "Excellence"...
    Yeah realised this. I'm just old fashioned and like marks that are untouched and raw. I had a teacher give me a "merit" certificate because I missed out by 1 mark. He was a good sort. We had a chuckle about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by rainman View Post
    You do know that the old system wasn't an absolute result, right, and was routinely adjusted to match the historical achievement profile? Leaving aside the fact that tests vary from event to event, so you're not getting an absolute assessment no matter what. NCEA actually does less of this result-fudging, being standard-based. Maybe there should be an NCEA achievement standard in understanding testing systems!

    The original thread is about the new nat stds for Y1-8 though. The fundamental problem with "absolute" testing there is that kids develop at such different rates. Example: my neighbour's kid was barely talking when he started Y1, but has now caught up (verbally and with regard to literacy generally) some years later. Would he have scored well according to nat stds at, say, Y2? Not a hope in hell. Did his teachers do an excellent job in bringing him up to speed by Y6? Absolutely. What conclusions could you have sensibly drawn about teaching quality from national standards? None.
    Totally get why you don't "test" at primary school like you do in high school due to different learning rates. I've always thought the younger you are the more noticeable the different rates between kids are.

    So for clarity, are they saying the new system now tests these kids using a more "absolute" means? I saw some questions on the news and it was interesting how they worked out some of the answers. Seemed confusing and illogical (I never could get long division though)

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by rainman View Post
    You do know that the old system wasn't an absolute result, right,
    True, Oh yes, and no assessment can ever be absolutely right. Assessment can be used for one of two purposes. Either to sort those who are being assessed into those who can and those who cannot, or measure the performance of those delivering the content.
    In the first case the teacher can usually predict how a pupil is going to perform in an exam. My analysis of my pupils predicted performance and actual in this round of NCEAs yielded very few surprises. The surprises came from a few pupils who did sod all all year then got a tutor at the 11th hour and crammed like a crazy thing. What does that prove? If you work hard you can pass! Go figure. This is why Sweden uses teacher reporting for university entrance cuts out a lot of needless crap. It's not a good idea for teachers to false report as they will lose professional credibility.
    In the second, it would possible to correlate between pupil performance and curriculum delivery if curriculum delivery were the only factor in pupil performance. But it isn't. School managers know (or at least should do if they are doing their jobs right) who the under and over performing teachers are and act accordingly.
    The original thread is about the new nat stds for Y1-8 though.
    True and this is why the principal that government should leave education to the educators holds at all levels. Government 'tinkers' to get votes. They do not really care. If they did they would ensure appropriate conditions for qualification and work input, they would include tertiary education in their education strategy (not just how much money they get) and develop a system of whole community education.

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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by ckai View Post
    So for clarity, are they saying the new system now tests these kids using a more "absolute" means? I saw some questions on the news and it was interesting how they worked out some of the answers. Seemed confusing and illogical (I never could get long division though)
    That's a good question - it's kinda what the pitch to the public says, but it isn't clear at all from the info on the minedu or tki sites. Minedu says it's a teacher subjective judgement (moderated and aligned with the curriculum - sounds expensive, good thing it'll fix the literacy and numeracy problem. Oh wait...), but tki talks more about norm-based assessment. Some of their examples show PAT assessment scores, although there is no real talk about making PAT testing mandatory. Personally I think they're making this shit up as they go along. The minedu age is particularly woolly - read the bits about plain language reporting for a laugh. Also have a look at the sample report templates here and here - these are not going to provde people the hard numeric scores they think they're going to get. (AKA once again, you're being conned).

    I mean, it's Tolley at work, you can hardly expect anything competent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KiWiP View Post

    True and this is why the principal that government should leave education to the educators holds at all levels. Government 'tinkers' to get votes. They do not really care.
    Isn't this a dangerous thing though?
    I can't really speak about specifics of this country, having not been educated here. But I've met a few young people in their 20s here whose heads have been filled with outrageous lies by teachers in this country. However.. leaving teaching to the teachers leaves them with a huge responsibility to teach the truth as they see it.
    I see that as a bad thing, considering how many teachers have left wing views.
    It's only when you take the piss out of a partially shaved wookie with an overactive 'me' gene and stapled on piss flaps that it becomes a problem.

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