F3 regs

[Billy]

Maybe Clubs could allow 250GP's at club meetings under Supp Regs?

Yip,Good idea,Why not try it during the upcoming Actrix series?As long as they are restricted too the specs SteveyB posted

[Skunk]

Yip,Good idea,Why not try it during the upcoming Actrix series?As long as they are restricted too the specs SteveyB posted

Process started already.

[lostinflyz]

the only other thing to consider with 250's (despite being much faster than f3) is that parts are slowly already becoming more and more difficult to source. Give it a few years and its likely to be increasingly difficult to find many parts depending on what honda and yamaha decide to do and what other championships continue to run 250's to stoke demand (250's are dead at the world stage, and slowly being dropped from national championships, as well as places like irish road racing that used to drive alot of the UK 250 scene). that being said i would probably buy a 250 tomorrow if i could race it at nationals. even if it would cost me a kidney or two.

Changing tack a bit, the f3 regs do need a bit of an update, as with this whole 600 lop a cylinder off it thing and custom frames ect, how long before someone gets real clever and shows up with moto2 chassis (they have to go somewhere from year to year, moriwaki (amongst others) will probably sell you one) and drive what is out 3rd division's class costs further and further up. Not to mention the easy avaliability of full supersport kits for 600's to push the brinks even further. as some have mentioned there is currently very few people moving into f3 as is (nationally). f3 is about tinkering and ingeniouty, developing something you dont buy outta a box, with a variety of solutions to a common problem, often starting from a common base.

actually on 250's, i thought about this some time back, that a weight limit could be a method of reducing the performance of them to make them feasible options, and allow for creative souls to find ways around that to better improve. and its unbeleivably easy to enforce.

[roadracingoldfart]

Me just sit and watch , comment later ...... talk amoung yaselves while i read and injest it all.


as you were


Paul.

[steveyb]

As long as after your injesting you don't just make shit out of it........ ;-)

[steveyb]

Yip,Good idea,Why not try it during the upcoming Actrix series?As long as they are restricted too the specs SteveyB posted

Let's try that for 2010 to see if it works before launching into NZSBK rules.

[roadracingoldfart]

As long as after your injesting you don't just make shit out of it........ ;-)

Ohhh shit Steve , thats not what i meant.
I was doing a bit of research first and using my memory to reflect on the issue.

I am far from against it , but ... i am a bit mystifyed as to why it cant be more a case of asking to be allowed into the class as a sub catagory , race within a race. The 250s are spectacular to watch and the TZ250U that i rode many years ago was fuckin wicked to ride , very forgiving , very nimble , very very powerful etc etc. Brent Jones did quite well on it in the day and i was sad to see the class vanish as it did. I can only assume it was a maint cost ratio that killed it off and the option of a cheap F3 bike took over as the preferred steed. Either that or they just stopped makin them.
I dont see many apart from the very top F3 bikes being able to run with a 250 really but i am happy to be proved wrong. The longevity of the 2 stroke bikes can be overcome with modern internals and the option to hot the hell out of them is going to produce a serious potential bike. In the proper hands they would be pretty good in even the F1 class as has been proven before.
Looking at a few lap times from (i think it was) 2000 the Moto GP 250s were doing a slower time that the present 600s are now which surprised me to be honest. Its not a big diff but its still reality. Tech advancments have allowed a 600 to develop more power that can be used and the same can be said for F3 , Neils bike is now 21 years old and with 80 rwhp (and a bit more for next year ) the balance to a 250 will be on a par for accelaration and top end. Where it is a bit un-balanced is in the diet dept, 450s weigh approx 150 - 170kgs give or take and a 250 must be close to 110-120 dripping wet.
I would love to see this suggested prospect have an airing in forums and round tables for the future but the onset of a suitable number of bikes will take a while to filter down to be viable.
Can anyone tell us all how many 250s there are that could turn out to this years season. ???

PS ; Steve.... I always say - give it enough shit to make a differance , but not enough to make it happen.

Paul.

[lostinflyz]

if 250's had a place to race i think youd find some come outta the wood work, and some get brought in. I considered bring one over last year for a bit, but it seemed a waste with no where to race it. so it got poured into nats and the 4 hundy. There are certainly a few people who would get one, if for no other reason than to still have a two stroke.

If you could address the weight balance they would be a nice fit, until someone decided to spend the dosh to have a rocket. then they would do the whole SV defeats 400 go to 450 thing. 700 Sv's and 500 multi's is it???

current supersport times are actually faster than current 250gp times (lap record times). I was surprised too but when you consider what supersport machinery is pumping out, its not to surprising. thus the reason the whole 600 drop a cylinder thing scares the crap outta me.

[scracha]

2 strokes are old, dead and really belong in posties. Don't see the point of bending the rules as a well ridden one should rape the 450cc 4's. If the point is to bring in new riders as a step-up class between 125 and 600 then there's a whole raft of cheap & current bikes that with the correct restrictions could be suitable but are currently ineligible.

GSXF650, CB600F, XJ600, FZ6 to name a few.

Combining some of the above with the current SV's, hyosungs,650 ninjas, shite old 400's, 250 2 smokes and 450 triples and you'd have a ripper of a class.

[lostinflyz]

2 strokes are old, dead and really belong in posties. Don't see the point of bending the rules as a well ridden one should rape the 450cc 4's. If the point is to bring in new riders as a step-up class between 125 and 600 then there's a whole raft of cheap & current bikes that with the correct restrictions could be suitable but are currently ineligible.

GSXF650, CB600F, XJ600, FZ6 to name a few.

Combining some of the above with the current SV's, hyosungs,650 ninjas, shite old 400's, 250 2 smokes and 450 triples and you'd have a ripper of a class.

i'd rather ride an absolutly fucked 80's sports bike, than a cheap commuter turned into wannabe racer. but if the bikes fit the bill (i would have thought most woulda been a bit to grunty) then why not. I think a basic requirment is that they are too slow as stock to be competitve, that some tuning and work needs to go in before you have a proper on the pace f3 bike.

depends how you view f3 re: rider development. to me its a place where something a bit different happens, and its not so much a place for rider development and neccasarily a stepping stone for development riders. I think we have a pretty neat and clear structure for riders to graduate though as they wish at current, and it has developed several good racers already.

[JayRacer37]

Good idea steve, looking at the times that williams and easton were doing at teretonga and levels an older 250 ridden by an equally good rider would probably be right on their heels. Any way you can get more riders/bikes into the class the better.

Another thing I reckon that should happen is that pro twin bikes are allowed to get F3 points. At the moment they are two seperate classes off the same start. The problem is that during a race, if you are an F3 bike following for instance 2 pro twin bikes, there is no incentive to pass them. I've done it, why risk anything when you have nothing to gain? This does nothing to help the crowd that has come to watch. I think this would make the F3 championshop a lot better and shouldn't make a difference to the pro twin class, its a great class and i think 3 years after it was started now it is starting to show its promise!

Considering that a Pro Twin is completly inside the F3 rules, I was quite suprised to learn at the start of the year I wouldn't be accumilating F3 points also...

[Billy]

Let's try that for 2010 to see if it works before launching into NZSBK rules.

Yip,Definitely,Would be good to see the inclusion of the big bore production 250s as well,IE nsr300

[Billy]

2 strokes are old, dead and really belong in posties. Don't see the point of bending the rules as a well ridden one should rape the 450cc 4's. If the point is to bring in new riders as a step-up class between 125 and 600 then there's a whole raft of cheap & current bikes that with the correct restrictions could be suitable but are currently ineligible.

GSXF650, CB600F, XJ600, FZ6 to name a few.

Combining some of the above with the current SV's, hyosungs,650 ninjas, shite old 400's, 250 2 smokes and 450 triples and you'd have a ripper of a class.

Yip,Some good points here,Some of the bikes you mention could be made eligible through supp regs at club level.But you would need to do that through the appropriate channels,The point raised at the start of the thread was regarding the eligibility of the NSR with a Tyga 300 kit.The 250 multi cylinder 2 strokes eligible for F3 are hugely restricted,Mainly due to a Knee jerk reaction from MNZ to stop a repeat of what happened to the Japanese F3 championship back in the late 80s whereby the factory backed 250 2 strokes dominated the class (bearing in mind they were only running against 400s,Not 450 specials or SV650s).The inclusion of Grand Prix based 250s at club level I see no problem with,Sure with the right rider they would and should deal with the current top F3 machines.But make no mistake about it,They are extremely hard to ride too their potential,They may look like a blinged up 250 proddy bike but they are a completely different animal altogether and only the very best riders can make them perform to anywhere near their potential

[slowpoke]

Changing tack a bit, the f3 regs do need a bit of an update, as with this whole 600 lop a cylinder off it thing and custom frames ect, how long before someone gets real clever and shows up with moto2 chassis (they have to go somewhere from year to year, moriwaki (amongst others) will probably sell you one) and drive what is out 3rd division's class costs further and further up. Not to mention the easy avaliability of full supersport kits for 600's to push the brinks even further. as some have mentioned there is currently very few people moving into f3 as is (nationally). f3 is about tinkering and ingeniouty, developing something you dont buy outta a box, with a variety of solutions to a common problem, often starting from a common base.

I kinda like the idea of 300cc production 2 strokes, it would inject a bit more life into the class, and hopefully transfer into the National's scene. The GP stuff is way to quick and is stretching things too far. It's about 7 years since I've seen a well ridden 250GP bike and it was more than competitive with a strong club field of 600's in Western Australia. The latest WSS 600's make +150hp so it's not suprising they edge even the best GP250's.

I'm not sure what you are saying with your last paragraph above. On the one hand you seem to be scared of the custom framed bikes, or 600/450's and on the other you admit that it is our one National Formula class that encourages clever thinking. Formula 3 isn't alone in struggling to attract new entries, it's just the nature of our National series at the moment with strong club numbers failing to translate into strong National entries. But I'd hate to see the rules become more restrictive. Glen Williams and Ozzy (and whoever dreams up the next thing) should be rewarded for their clever thinking, not punished. It's one thing to have an interesting idea, it's quite another to put it into practice and make it work so well done to them for thinking outside the square. What they have done is exactly what the class is all about as far I'm concerned.

[lostinflyz]

I kinda like the idea of 300cc production 2 strokes, it would inject a bit more life into the class, and hopefully transfer into the National's scene. The GP stuff is way to quick and is stretching things too far. It's about 7 years since I've seen a well ridden 250GP bike and it was more than competitive with a strong club field of 600's in Western Australia. The latest WSS 600's make +150hp so it's not suprising they edge even the best GP250's.

I'm not sure what you are saying with your last paragraph above. On the one hand you seem to be scared of the custom framed bikes, or 600/450's and on the other you admit that it is our one National Formula class that encourages clever thinking. Formula 3 isn't alone in struggling to attract new entries, it's just the nature of our National series at the moment with strong club numbers failing to translate into strong National entries. But I'd hate to see the rules become more restrictive. Glen Williams and Ozzy (and whoever dreams up the next thing) should be rewarded for their clever thinking, not punished. It's one thing to have an interesting idea, it's quite another to put it into practice and make it work so well done to them for thinking outside the square. What they have done is exactly what the class is all about as far I'm concerned.

Im not hoping to limit an idea, merely the extent to which ideas can be developed. The concern is that the current reading of the rules allows for someone with a bit of money (or not given a few years) to develop machinery that will obsolete the fields (looking at moto2 and super 600 kits). We have restrictions of 650 machinery already to stop them developing excessive power. It still allows for creative thinking and only limits 1 avenue. I am not proposing to not allow the 450/600 concept to race, just think it needs some limits to stop it having easy openings for a dominate bike (rules almost identical to the current 250 limitations)

I am with you about the way about trying to keep the class open to new ideas and the existing. I just think there are a few avenues that could be limited or stopped (mag and CF rims) to ensure that a variety of solutions at a reasonable budget can be achieved. As someone developing a f3 bike, you have to assume alot of risk when building these (unless your building off an existing platform) and it may be impossible to gauge your success until you've overspent in places you need not have.

the 300 proddy 2 smoker idea seems reasonable.. If i was in the rules i'd allow gp chassis on the proddy 250 motors as is instead though. but just personal opinion cause i think someone like dan makensies NSR motor, or jock's rgv in a Full GP frame would be good enough to win a f3 race in capable hands (both them are probably capable)