F3 regs

[slowpoke]

Nah, carbon fibre up the wazoo, I couldn't care less. At the end of the day someone has to ride the thing and that is where most of the differnce occurs. Even with the restrictions you propose Glen Williams, Terry Fitzgerald and Jason Easton would still be the guys to beat. Open slather I say, it's only one class, and if people are seriously concerned about cost effective racing there are plenty of other classes. There should be at least one class that allows free(-ish) expression, where if you can think it you can do it.

[lostinflyz]

Nah, carbon fibre up the wazoo, I couldn't care less. At the end of the day someone has to ride the thing and that is where most of the differnce occurs. Even with the restrictions you propose Glen Williams, Terry Fitzgerald and Jason Easton would still be the guys to beat. Open slather I say, it's only one class, and if people are seriously concerned about cost effective racing there are plenty of other classes. There should be at least one class that allows free(-ish) expression, where if you can think it you can do it.

yea the point being if you wanna try and get near glen and his kit, you need to outlay around 10 odd grand for a bike, a fair few grand for engine mods and then 4-5 grand for rims. the sums reverse if you do it on a 400 but the figures still come out roughly the same.

as you say glen and terry and jason would be at the front either way. If it was easier (not 20+ odd k) to be on a bike that could match them then there might well be others. sketchy showed that it can be done, to join the front few but how many guys are going to stick in f3 (or even come to f3) with his kind of talent.

I stand morally opposed to a f3 bike costing more to setup than a top level 600. where is the motivation to join f3 if you could have a class up's bike for less.

[steveyb]

Nah, carbon fibre up the wazoo, I couldn't care less. At the end of the day someone has to ride the thing and that is where most of the differnce occurs. Even with the restrictions you propose Glen Williams, Terry Fitzgerald and Jason Easton would still be the guys to beat. Open slather I say, it's only one class, and if people are seriously concerned about cost effective racing there are plenty of other classes. There should be at least one class that allows free(-ish) expression, where if you can think it you can do it.

Open slather you say.
OK, so 250 GP bikes are all go then? Choice!! ;-)

You also indicate that the last time you saw 250GP bikes up against a 600SP bikes was 7 years ago.
Luckily for the 600 riders those bikes have moved on HEAPS since then, while the 250GP bikes up to Honda 2000 and Yamaha 1999 have not really.
Sure it is possible to buy newer parts, but there are still some fundamental limitations therein, hence suggesting the age limits.
Your mention of a range of commuter bikes shows, I think, a flaw in logic. Have a real think (as I will say again) about the current class leading F3 bikes and how much time, sweat, ingenuity and money has gone into them. The same would have to go into any other bike to make it a class leader, 250GP or otherwise.
Also, those bikes all have real limitations as race bikes. Even the SV650 believe it or not. It takes some real tweeking to make one go as well as the F3 front running bikes. And also the Ozzy 450 concept. It is no magic bullet either. With stock suspension and no engine work it would be as slow as any other stock bike. One needs to put in the effort to be at the front, just like anything else.
I think there is alot of comment here from people who have never actually raced 250GP bikes.
As Billy says, they still take a good rider, good set up and plenty of practice to make them go fast.
Only the really best riders can make them go really well, otherwise they are just another bike riding around in mid pack. No bunny is going to hop on and all of a sudden be smoking everyone. That is the feeling I get that I think alot of people think. That they are some magical cure for no talent.

As you were.

Steve

[GSVR]

The rider talent vs bike ability equation.

I see the same old posters here again....


I reacon a good comparision as to how much modifications effect a bike performance is to compare Terry and Glens bikes with The top Protwin bikes. After all those mods they are going two or three seconds faster a lap. Thats huge but what cuts into this is the fact Glen and Terry are probably faster than the top Protwin riders.

If a bikes ability was 0.1 of a second faster than your equal per lap then that is enough to win comfortably. Wow next thing people will be saying you need to spend 10 grand in mods to a Protwin bike to be competitive with the front runners.

[lostinflyz]

The rider talent vs bike ability equation.

I see the same old posters here again....


I reacon a good comparision as to how much modifications effect a bike performance is to compare Terry and Glens bikes with The top Protwin bikes. After all those mods they are going two or three seconds faster a lap. Thats huge but what cuts into this is the fact Glen and Terry are probably faster than the top Protwin riders.

If a bikes ability was 0.1 of a second faster than your equal per lap then that is enough to win comfortably. Wow next thing people will be saying you need to spend 10 grand in mods to a Protwin bike to be competitive with the front runners.

i'd beg to differ. some of the front pro twin's riders (both this year and previously) i would rate to have a shot at f3 glory given good enough equipment. devlopment wise glen's bike is by far the most developed, with jasons a close 2nd and those two are at the front.

as for spending 10 grand in mods to a pro twins bikes, some are doing that. well not in mods so much as refinement. but some are doing it and they are the front runners.

[scracha]

i'd rather ride an absolutly fucked 80's sports bike, than a cheap commuter turned into wannabe racer. but if the bikes fit the bill (i would have thought most woulda been a bit to grunty) then why not. I think a basic requirment is that they are too slow as stock to be competitve, that some tuning and work needs to go in before you have a proper on the pace f3 bike.

Horses for courses. I'm the opposite, it'd rather ride a cheap (you forgot to mention reliable and easy availability of parts) commuter turned racebike than a fucked 80's sports bike. Grunty yes, but heavy and shit handling. Restrictions (as per Pro Twins) on the tuning & suspenders work on these aforementioned modern beasties would keep it interesting, reduce costs and perhaps turn around the SV650 series we currently have at the pointy end of F3

development riders. I think we have a pretty neat and clear structure for riders to graduate though as they wish at current, and it has developed several good racers already.

I disagree and think it's as clear as mud at the moment. As much as I think 600 superstock is the way to go, the 125 (or 250 4 stroke) to 600 jump is huge. The fundamental problem with F3 at the moment is that the rules are largely still based around 25 year old sportsbikes. Then they were fudged to keep 400's competitive with 250 2 strokes. They were then fudged to accommodate 650 commuter twins but that's just a plaster. Now someone on here is proposing fudging the 250 2 strokes to keep them competitive (although they already are) with bored out 400's.

No wonder sponsors are largely uninterested in F3. Not one even remotely modern sportsbike (what was the last one... Aprillia RS250 .... 10 years ago?) fits within the rules so why do we still persist with the strange capacity limits?

[steveyb]

Fudging?
Any racing series worth its weight needs to have a place for smaller capacity machines and also a place for those riders who want to express their ingenuity and engineering skills.
In NZ this is the Formula 3 class. Note, that says Formula.
This means that it is just an amalgam of rules designed to permit a whole swag of different machines into it that may or may not have similar performance levels.
Formula rules are always changed, they are not set in concrete and always allow more work to be done on machines than production racing classes.
Sponsors aren't always interested in supporting the newest and flashest bikes. Some, believe it or not, support the rider and whatever it is they race.
Suggesting rule changes to Formula rules is what Formula racing is all about. Change, development and progress. It is not a place just to dump all the old and small shitbikes, but a place for some ingenuity and interesting mixtures of machines.

As you were.

[satchriossi]

Wow, what a marvellous response to the post! I'm pleased it has provoked such a debate.

I must say that there's no way that i'd be bothering the fast guys on my production based 300cc 2T! I just want to be legitimately able to run my bike in a suitable class.

Just another thing i'd like to point out about the Tyga 300 kit; When i bought my bike it had done 27,000 kms and i'd already made the decision to put a new crank in it and renew all the oil seals and various other bits and pieces in the name of future reliability. The bike got a partial restoration really. The top end needed a rebuild too and a big advantage of the 300 kit is that it uses brand new OEM Honda nikasil plated barrels. This was a big draw for me when making the choice to spend the cash, besides the obvious bling factor of having the bigger engine. I effectively ended up with a brand new motor. I must say that the spanner work and preparation are half the fun of the whole track bike thing for me.

Wiseco pistons are available to suit, as are VHM heads with removable combustion chambers.

[scracha]

Any racing series worth its weight needs to have a place for smaller capacity machines and also a place for those riders who want to express their ingenuity and engineering skills.

250 4 strokes not fit that bill? Also post classics & clubmans. Is it a riders class or an engineering/tuning excercise?

Wow, what a marvellous response to the post! I'm pleased it has provoked such a debate.

I must say that there's no way that i'd be bothering the fast guys on my production based 300cc 2T! I just want to be legitimately able to run my bike in a suitable class.

Essentially wot others have said. If you're not bothering the fast guys and you keep your mouth shut then bung it in F3 (hell, if you're not in the top 5 finishers then I'd say bung it in posties but someone would start bleating......but that's another thread). When you're bothering the fast guys then you'll be able to put it into F2 legitimately and be at the top half of the field.

[nzkr1]

Just leave the rules how they are. If you want to race your 300 you should have thought about that before you built it. Now as for 250 GP bikes they can bugger off too. Have you ever watched the 125 GP bikes race in F3, they are fast and with a good rider are always at the pointy end of the feild.
I ride a 250 stroker which is basicly stock and I can give the odd 650 twin and 450 multi a run for their money. And if I had a whole heap of money I wouldn't be boring it out to 300 there are so many other possibilities for 250 production stroker. But I say if you can't beat'em join'em, if you want to be at the front get a 650 twin and if you want to race your hybrid go in clubmans or go to the track days. Plus I think the PMCC have an open twin class.
I would be quite keen to see a 2 stroke only class!!

[Str8 Jacket]

I would be quite keen to see a 2 stroke only class!!

Oh hell yeah!! Then I wouldn't be the only one carrying a pack of ciggies in their leathers for when the engin goes bang in the middle of a race....

In all seriousness it'd be awesome, there could be a 'junior' and 'senior' class to accomodate all sizes!!

[Billy]

[QUOTE=Str8 Jacket;1129648537

In all seriousness it'd be awesome, there could be a 'junior' and 'senior' class to accomodate all sizes!![/QUOTE]

Are we still talking motorcycles,Cause if not,May need a special superultraminilite class for me Bwahahaha

[Str8 Jacket]

Are we still talking motorcycles,Cause if not,May need a special superultraminilite class for me Bwahahaha

look mister you know very well it aint based on 'age' it's all about size!

[lostinflyz]

Just leave the rules how they are. If you want to race your 300 you should have thought about that before you built it. Now as for 250 GP bikes they can bugger off too. Have you ever watched the 125 GP bikes race in F3, they are fast and with a good rider are always at the pointy end of the feild.
I ride a 250 stroker which is basicly stock and I can give the odd 650 twin and 450 multi a run for their money. And if I had a whole heap of money I wouldn't be boring it out to 300 there are so many other possibilities for 250 production stroker. But I say if you can't beat'em join'em, if you want to be at the front get a 650 twin and if you want to race your hybrid go in clubmans or go to the track days. Plus I think the PMCC have an open twin class.
I would be quite keen to see a 2 stroke only class!!

how many 450's do you guys have up there??? good effort if you can beat 450's.

we have a two or three two strokes inthe SI than can hold the faster club 400 and mid pack 650 guys but they aint competitive. You are right about 125's and f3 though.

but the thought that you have to have a 650 to be at the front is silly. of the fastest 5 or so f3 guys in nz only 2 are on Sv's.

[lostinflyz]

250 4 strokes not fit that bill? Also post classics & clubmans. Is it a riders class or an engineering/tuning excercise?



Essentially wot others have said. If you're not bothering the fast guys and you keep your mouth shut then bung it in F3 (hell, if you're not in the top 5 finishers then I'd say bung it in posties but someone would start bleating......but that's another thread). When you're bothering the fast guys then you'll be able to put it into F2 legitimately and be at the top half of the field.

club rules is club rules, no one cares and the rules gets broken all the time (not to mention these are set by the club, and never checked). Theres no posties, or f2 at nats level. and thats where f3 regs really apply.

f3 is often not determined by the best rider in allota peoples opinion. so its not a riders class per say, but nor is it always determined by the best bike. so its not jsut an engineering exercise.