A new road race class and what to do with F3 rant

[TwoSeven]

I agree with k14 on the 125 thing. They are cheap and nasty, plenty around and easy to race - even if you are a big tall lard, still competitive.

[sAsLEX]

top idea, 636s though?

Sounds good, as even though not ideal, someone could purchase a road bike and race it on the odd occasion. that is why MX is good as you can race and be competitive on the bike you normally ride around.

A couple of grand on top of the cost of your road bike for a pipe, rearsets and maybe a fairing and your in! sounds great but with most things in new zealand watch out for the old tall poppy syndrome!

[Ghost Lemur]

I'm still not convinced $10k is too expensive - go to a MX meet and see how many $15k mx bikes there are - 50 or more. It also means there are another 50 $10k 1 year old ones and so on.

You need to compare $10k to the average NZ income. Still think that $10k is easy?

It's looking at taking me 18 months to save up $5k for my next bike and gear. I would love to get into racing for fun sometime, could lead one or both of my sons to get into it later. And who know if they have some talent. But as things stand the chances are super slim of me being able to afford that. Almost makes me hope they have no desire or talent. Nothing would kill me more than having a talented child whom I couldn't afford to let develop.

Not saying my financial situation is anyone's fault than my own. But putting the costs of the entry level beyond the average families capability means that there's less chances of the talent entering the game. More importantly you need for-fun riders and participants just as much as the going-places talent.

Maybe a refined F3 which is only open to 2stroke 250's and 4stroke 400s.

Maybe a series with 150/125 2strokes and 250 4 stokes. Only problem is due to the graduated licencing system 250cc bikes get premium dollars.

A stock series could also be fun. Particularly if there was the ability to hire for each race. Obviously that would require the manufacturer to get on board too. But the benefits to them of being the sole supplier of bikes would/should outway the costs.


Remember the whole idea of these introductory levels are to enable the hobbyists to play, plus inable the talent to develop. Obviously by developing in a cheap series, by the time they need to move up a level they've got some experience/results which should at least make it slightly easier to get sponsorship to offset (to varying degrees) the additional costs of moving up.

The other benefit of a cheap entry level is that more get involved. As more get involved there is more chances of businesses seeing benefits in becoming sponsors. Not to mention the additional flow on effect of more events.

[gav]

So whats wrong with clubmans class? How will you be racing against Craig Shirrifs if you buy a 600? Is he a local at your club? And why do you think you should be competitive with him anyway? Maybe he has more talent for a start as does no doubt Shane King? The thing with road racing is in some respects the bikes do tend to have a longer shelf race. Think you could race a 10 year CR125 in the Nationals and run top 10 in MX? You could in 125 road racing. Its only really the 600 class where perhaps you start to lose out, even in Superbikes or F1 you can still do OK on a modded older bike. Sure to race at a National level is expensive, but why shouldnt it be? Why should it be a cheap sport? Take up bowls if you want cheap.

[sAsLEX]

It's looking at taking me 18 months to save up $5k for my next bike and gear. I would love to get into racing for fun sometime, could lead one or both of my sons to get into it later. And who know if they have some talent. But as things stand the chances are super slim of me being able to afford that. Almost makes me hope they have no desire or talent. Nothing would kill me more than having a talented child whom I couldn't afford to let develop.

what a shit thing to say! If ya kid has talent and loves what they do then they can put in the effort to get what they want out of the thing they love doing. Getting a piece of shit bucket and learning how to rebuild it and putting the hard yards in dont cost much other than time and sweat. And if they are motivated enough money is never an obstacle that cant be overcome, kids have heaps of spare time whie they are young, mow some lawns for race gas money, help out at the local bike shop doing odd jobs to maybe get discount on stuff. If someone has the drive and desire to become something there is nothing stopping them.

Look at TS he has spent god knows how many thousands on his bikes, and he has only been going for 2 years. But he has made the effort to compete in his sport.

[That Guy]

I'm glad this has got some discussion going - most people who have replied I expect either do race or have considered it so all opinions are of value.

I'm not syaing $10-$15k is cheap by any means; but if you look at all the hundreds of people turning up to race motocross (try 300 riders at the Woodville GP for example) they find a way, so even if some of us can't afford that; there are plenty in NZ who can; so what would it take to lure some of them over to the hard stuff?

For me it was great going to Woodville and racing in the expert class and not getting smoked by Kings etc, but still being at the event. I was racing against people at the same level as me and I am pretty sure grades within bike classes is why motocross does so much better than road racing. My guess is a lot of riders might race at national events on 600s (or 125s or 250 GP bikes or whatever was chosen) if they didn't feel like they would be in the way.

The problem is there are so many different bike types out there you can't grade things so people stay away. If you knew to go road racing you had to have a 600 because nothing else was eligible (or a 125 or whatever the class of machine was - I'm not saying 600 street stock is the answer but something needs to be chosen) then a lot more people would be on the same machine and hey presto classes are created - and just maybe we'd get 150 riders at a national meet.

It is so fractured at the moment it's not going to go anywhere.

[TwoSeven]

Out of interest one of the things that motocross seems to have is events for 8-10 year olds and younguns in general. I'd die of shock if I turned up to a NZ road racing club and they were having a mini-moto session in with all the other bikes.

You cant encourage the general populace to get enthusastic about a sport when most of the above posts seems happy to shell out what is effectively 1/3 of the average kiwis yearly income.

Shell out a grand for a mini-moto and kit and you'd have 'bucket' loads of folks down there. Then as they get older, you'd have people more apreciative of spending 3-5k on a 125 and then perhaps 10k if they want to get more serious.

But I think people have delusions of grandeur if they think anyone can hostely be happy shelling out 10-15 grand year after year for a hobby. Leave that to the chaps that get their sponsorships and buy their race wins.

[Kwaka-Kid]

Its a hard one guy.

A Real hard one!!... although i think F3 is closer then alot of us think.

to be perfectly honest, i think if we put Hayden Fitzgerald on my shitted out old VFR400 down on everything and even on my shit tyres, he would i think win a club race... I think if u put Hayden fitzgeral onto 6Chris6's TZR250 (well slower again, prolly would be slowest bike in F3) he would get very close to winning F3.

Just my opinion i guess....

and then, he made that same bike u own now win F3 over and over and over did he not? from what i heard that was a beast not to be reckoned with?

Who knows.... i Like F3 just the way it is I dont need a trophy! i just need the bros, the guys i talk to inbetween racemeetings there, amoungst the group, all with a common aim (to get to that finish line fastest!) knowing full well i cant come top, but regardless i have so much fun... Eh Frosty Boy! :P haha!

[gav]

Hey, That Guy, why not just race your K5?

[Hoon]

Yeah I kinda agree with KK. F3 is the main feeder class so you can't make it too unattainable to entry level racers. Old 400's are plentiful and cheap. Two strokes, especially GP bikes are too few and high maintenance for most beginner racers on a budget.
Also Motorcycle racing in NZ isn't exactly flourishing at the moment, numbers are low so you can't get too picky with the classes either.

[Brian d marge]

Crikey where do you start ....

First the essence of racing ...I am shit hot you aint ....ok prove it ...K ..1st we need a bike (apples against apples pears against pears)...and go ...

If all you want to do is fang round against your mates then track days etc want to be a weekend racer ...fine

You DONT NEED 10k ...as pointed out a rs 125 can be bought real cheap ,,the secret in making these go fast is the tuning ,,,,but they are a simple engine ,,,and the level of reliability is up to you ...as is learning to ride the damn thing ...possibly the hardest thing ..( wonder why rossi is so good ,,he spent a LOT of time on 125s
Another example the early mc16 hondas shared the same cases as the rs 250 honda ..JHA over here are getting a very reliable ( street ) 70 bhp out of the early 16...which meand a honest 80 in race trim ....ie peaky motor and hard to ride type of stuff .....
that aint going to cost u more than 4 k all up and you will get a good season mid field bottom of top if you are good
I have just built a nice mx bike with revalved suspension ( more to do ) better suspension ( forks of a 2000 125 ) ..rental bars ( from the waste bin from the local shop wire brushed up ...look real smart , and they were thrown out cause the cross bar was bent ,,not the handle bar ..so I just swapped that from my bent set ...Cost ,,nil nadda

What I am saying here is racing isnt a cheap sport ,,,such as table tennis ,,but neither is it a 30 k investment ......

If I was to race road in NZ , I would look at the class I want to win ...look at the machinery needed to win and try to copy that ( bearing in mind the old american saying its all about CC ...a 650 4 valve has less intake area than a 4 cylinder 4 valve ...but a 650 twin will produce more torque ( angular force times radius ) than a 4 cylinder 400 ..ie it will have the drive out of the corner ,,less frontal area But the horsepowers could be the same as the intake area of the 400 is larger ( late at note and stuffed if I am getting off this chair to find my notes !!!!

2 stroke or 4 stroke ...well the two stroke is a very efficient pump but tend to be less forgiving in the drive out of the corners ,,,,lighter though ...easier to maintain ....4 stroke well ...yes ...why use 4 strokes when only two will do


I guess what all the above clap trap is saying is that IF you use your head , think deeply about what you are doing and how it is getting done, you can race quite competively for quite reasonable sums ...( I am doing it ....)

I would like to know the cost breakdown of a 45 k bike ,,,,it would be a chalenge to do the same thing for 1/2 the amount ...

One of the best formulas I heard was quite simple ...u were graded by your last race ( best lap time ) say the lap record is 1 .50 u do a 2 min then you run with all the bike that are putting down 2 min lap times plus or minus a percentage ....if you do a 1 70 you move up to the bottom of the next class who are say putting down 1,60 plus /minus .....( the percentage is based on the overall attendance at the meeting .....

Motards are 50 percent dirt and 50 percent steet as they were to find out who was the best riders dirt or track ...a motor cross bike with street tyres isnt a motard its just a funny shaped road bike !! and doesnt belong in what seems the dumping ground of F3

McNZ would bow to pressure IF a well presented workable plan was presented to them by a large number of compeditors .... ie organised and willing to participate people .....and the internet is a wonderful tool for doing just that ...

Stephen
Who came 2nd in the 4 hour Ironman enduro on a bike 20 years older that most of the others ....SO it can be done

[LB]

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Hamish has some strong thoughts on this, I'll ask him tonight (don't want to wake him up now to ask him, wouldn't get a good reception) (note I'm a bit earlier than normal this morning!!) and will post tomorrow AM. It's something we've often talked about but I'll get it straight before I post.

Very good thread for discussion Guy.

I agree very strongly that the SV650 class in Tim Gibbe's Suzuki Series was great - it all comes down to rider ability, the bullshit stops very quickly. Also the deal to rent or buy one for the series was a BLOODY good deal, got a few people into racing who wouldn't otherwise have been able to afford it.

BTW, speaking of SV650 class, anyone know if Andrew Bretherton will get back into racing? He was SO quick on that SV!

Have been watching the R6 cup racing in the UK each Wednesday night on Sky too, that's really good (probably a bit too big budget for NZ, but a great principle).
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[FROSTY:Me]

Guy I totally agree with the reasoning behind your thinking. Production based racing has a huge apeal to me too.
I'd take it one step further and aproach the tyre importers and find a less popular tyre that needs promoting and Have that as the only tyre able to be used.
The only problem with "production" racing is that the factory sponsored guys seem to be able to find a way to get a touch more HP
Trust me here i know for 100% fact that certain bikes in 250 production and sports production got the "factory" hot up kits.
Personally I'd like to see 250 production reintroduced in NZ
A 250cc 4 stroke supplied unmodified.
The racing would be relatively speaking slow and it would work well on every track but Puke
What we need is to get a manufacturer to get in behind the series.

[White trash]

What we need is to get a manufacturer to get in behind the series.

Hyosung GT250 racing.

It's either that or GN250s and you couldn't pay me to race one of them.

[Eddieb]

Suzuki Goose, 350cc, 145kg, 33hp.

Cheap, cheerful, low complexity 4 stroke motor with plenty of tuning skills and parts available due to it using the venerable DR350 motor.

Or get suzuki (Or someone) to import a pile of sv400's from Japan
Suzuki sv400 399cc, 167kg, 52hp.

Either of those should be fast enough to be appealing and fairly exciting around everywhere except maybe Puke and cheap enough for a lot more people to have a go.

The other option no one seems to have mentioned as a starting point, and I'm not sure why cause I don't know anything about it, is the streetstock 150's. Plenty of those around and it doesn't have to be a one make/model series.