A new road race class and what to do with F3 rant

[F5 Dave]

One of the hardest things to accept is that someone will always be a better rider than you & someone will always be prepared to spend more than you.

A way back, being broke & a fairly feeble rider I started in buckets. I enjoyed it & could afford it. When some money came about the logical progression was a 125. My arch-nemesis was also planning this move, evident by the new bike turning up in my garage (keep your friends close & your enemies closer) as he was my flatmate.

I then became scared as I realised how much he was spending as the bike got updated, fairings ordered, flash carb, trick bits, wheels, tyres for every meeting. Bugger spending that much, so I bailed.

But I have seen a couple of friends that have all sorts of aspirations & throw all sorts of money at it but at the end of the day they don’t have the talent to be racing right up with the big boys. ‘course they blame it on the money they need to be competitive.

About this time you have to respect the likes of Craig Sheriffs & the like (bro Chris was probably similarly talented) who come from no money & just rely on talent & sponsors.

So the point? Race to have fun. F3, Clubmans, 150s, buckets. If you are any good make the commitment & buy a 600.

F3 has been skewed by the SV650s no doubt, but also by the lack of Japanese race reps. It was their market that really created F3 as we knew it. If the local importers had kept up the flow of importing new Hornet & Bandit 250s/400s then a ‘neked’ F3 class might have evolved.

It hasn't, get over it & go do something crazy like buy a BEARs bike & move to Christchurch.

[FROSTY:Me]

Suzuki Goose, 350cc, 145kg, 33hp.

Cheap, cheerful, low complexity 4 stroke motor with plenty of tuning skills and parts available due to it using the venerable DR350 motor.

Or get suzuki (Or someone) to import a pile of sv400's from Japan
Suzuki sv400 399cc, 167kg, 52hp.

Either of those should be fast enough to be appealing and fairly exciting around everywhere except maybe Puke and cheap enough for a lot more people to have a go.

The other option no one seems to have mentioned as a starting point, and I'm not sure why cause I don't know anything about it, is the streetstock 150's. Plenty of those around and it doesn't have to be a one make/model series.

I thought about 150/250 streetstock too but there are no more new bikes coming in in 2 smoke.
I think to be a successful production class the bikes need to be available new and at an affordable price. They also need to be reasonable price wise to keep racing so cheap tyres/servicing etc. The goose has the same problem
The SV400 --sure why not --cheap to buy and realatively simple to maintain.
I wondered about the suzuki gsx250' and the likes.

[TwoSeven]

I agree with the graded lap time thing. That used to be used in supersport 600 in the UK back in the 80s.

Basically it doesnt take into account what machine you are on - rather what time you can do on it. The grade you go in depends on what you lap time is at that track.

So for example if you can do a 1.40 at ruapuna then you'll be in grade 1 because the lap record is 1.30 odd. If you are 1.40 to 1.55, you'd be in grade 2 etc. Never raced at the track before, grade 3. It meant you just got whatever machine you could afford, turned up and raced and you knew everyone around you had a similar skill.

For club racers - it was a little different. You had your ACU passbook which would be stamped/signed if you got a top 6 position - that would dictate the grade you are in. You only went up a grade if you scored a podium in more than 3 separate events. They also had a mechanism for the slowest riders dropping grades. It was only based on the races you competed in, so if you missed events you werent penalised.

It was good because it takes the bike and equipment out of the issue. You'd find super tuned custom 250s up against 750s and all crazy manner of things.

If you didnt have a club log book, you got an orange bib so people knew your were new at that track or new to racing.

The supersport and superbike rules were operated in the same way, except there was a machinary limitation and you had to qualify within 10% (or some figure) of the fastest time. This was good because you used to get 150+ 600s turn up and try to qualify, but with only 50 bikes selected, the rest would end up in the graded support races during the day - so everyone got rides, but only a few had a chance to ride in the prof races - although everyone had access to that chance.

[That Guy]

Just to get the record straight here - I have no problem with being beaten by better riders at all - I admire them.

What I'm trying to point out is that mx has far more riders doing it in NZ than road racing. The result has ben Ben Townley, Josh Coppins etc. I'd love to see the days again when we produce another Aaron Slight/Simon Crafar etc - and for now, while we have riders with enough skill they just don't seem to be getting there. If road racing was attended in the same number as mx then pretty quickly follows more dollars and the opportunity to get riders racing overseas.

By the way good luck to that Red Fenton guy (I don't know him) with getting a NZ superbike team going.

My reckoning is we should model road racing on mx as that will attract more riders to road racing. The advantages mx has over road racing (granted road will always be a bit more expensive no matter what is done) is that you can buy new, reliable, reasonably cheap, 'turn key' race bike, and have an enjoyable day's racing, racing people at your own skill level. Hence plenty of people do it. I think F3 should be replaced (or added to with a sub-class) with something similar.

[Fluffy Cat]

Sounds good to me if there had been a super stock 600 series probably would have got an zx6r instead of my 250 ahh let me rephrase that i would have got the 600 after i had got all zee 250 two strokes in NZ.Do not care who wins just enjoy racing as most of the races end up more of a time trial in my case.It would be great to race against similar machines with no 650s 900s or 125s they are a bunch of spoilers and get in the way,whilst i am going it would be nice to have a bit longer races as what we get is way to short.
If super stock happened i would be in,change exhaust, dot tyres,race fairings and braided hoses(why cant you change those in the UK is beyond me) and you are racing.If peeps wanted to blueprint fine by me.
Oh and one day licences would be great.

[Kwaka-Kid]

Hyosung GT250 racing.

It's either that or GN250s and you couldn't pay me to race one of them.

The man has a point! We have here a perfect candidate, Hyosung, what about thier 650's tho? and are they competetive/comaprable to SV650's at all? i fear the manu' isnt quite up with the jappers but nonetheless worth a go... Imagine it, bog stock racing is what im keen for other then F3, everything else is too expensive.

[Racey Rider]

... The advantages mx has over road racing (granted road will always be a bit more expensive no matter what is done) is that you can buy new, reliable, reasonably cheap, 'turn key' race bike, and have an enjoyable day's racing, racing people at your own skill level....

You seem to be forgetting, that a lot of NZ'er can ride their MX bikes just down the road to their local farm track. And another day, go on organized trail rides ($15). To practice at their local MX club track costs $5 - $10 a day in track fees.
A lot of us road racers have to travel some hours to our nearest track ($40 +). Then pay $80 -$100 track fee. Dirt bikes are arguably more crashable, so less cost. More family orientated Dirt riding is always going to attract more users.

[Steve_R6R]

Sometimes you have to go with what you have, if you can get a cheap old 600, race it, beat guys on faster, newer bikes and check your lap times against that of the period when the bike was compeditive. Guage where you are. I rode in the nationals at Manfeild this year on a bike that was built last century. I finnished in the bottom five (2nd to last excluing DNF's). But still managed personal best times and didn't get laped (just). I found the faster riders are supportive of us "slow old fellows" ("just hold your f******g line" they said), Brian Bernard said you only get faster riding with the fast guys. VERY TRUE

I don't know how much faster I would go on an unlimited budget, but I know it wouldn't win me any races.

Just ride wot you got the best you can. Save your pennys for go fast bits or a new bike and dream of sponsors....

[That Guy]

MNZ AGM completed and they decided not to put in any changes to F3 for this year, I know Paul Stewart was thinking about changing it though.

Any hoo I found this series in the UK - looks quite cool I think: http://www.minitwins.co.uk/rules/rules2005a.html

[Kickaha]

MNZ AGM completed and they decided not to put in any changes to F3 for this year, I know Paul Stewart was thinking about changing it though.

My understanding of the AGM from our rep was if F3 and Sidecars don't put decent numbers on the girds this year that next year they will not have a National Championship?

[That Guy]

Yeah I heard that too...I think they had only 11 bikes turn up for F3 at some national races which is pretty sad (considering 30-40 turn up at PMCC and Vic Club F3 racing) but also proves the point something needs doing...

[sedge]

I agree with the graded lap time thing.

Me too ... Best thing I've heard so far... You want to go racing, race against people and machines that are as shite as you are !

What is the point of racing... Well, competition... What is the main complaint you hear ? Awww but s/he's spent 30k on his bike in x class and is winning.

Well, feck him/her... If you keep winning coz you're on the best bike then be like Rossi and move down a step, coz it's ghey to compete on something that everyone knows is the best bike.

Look at the Targa NZ, they have a thing called 'index of performance', it means that the shittier your car is the more points you get, IE a 1980s Escort will have a 3.0 index .vs. a 2006 EVO at 0.9. (numbers made up, but you get the idea)

I'm sure as racing goes on the indexes would be worked out.

It also means that as you improve your bike and your laptimes drop you are always competing against like competitors.

As far as ability goes I for one would LOVE to see a cruddy old guy in abused leathers riding a pop up Katana beating some cock on a K5 GSXR1000.

Don't we all appreciate the guys on that old sidecar at Wanganui every year ? If they had some equally shitty competition wouldn't it be even cooler ? even if just for them.

Ah well, that's the only way I'll ever really compete, I can't drop craploads of time or money in to racing but I would like to give it a go... If I can compete with others I'll be happy, if I can get to the top of my class I'd be stimulated to get a better bike and invest more time. If I'm investing time, my family is investing time and I'm pretty sure it would inspire my little guy to invest some time of his own. (he's two and he likes watching MotoGP with me now, I'll need a minimoto soon)

IN FACT, RULES LIKE THIS WILL BE THE THING THAT GETS ME, MY FAMILY AND A LOT OF OTHERS IN TO MOTORCYCLE RACING.

Listen up VMCC et al.

Sedge.

[curious george]

You DONT NEED 10k ...as pointed out a rs 125 can be bought real cheap ,,the secret in making these go fast is the tuning

Stephen
Who came 2nd in the 4 hour Ironman enduro on a bike 20 years older that most of the others ....SO it can be done

Jeeez. So far off the point it's not funny...
I'm about 6'+something and about 85 kg. WTF am I gonna do with a 125GP bike?
The weight penalty against a 50kg kid is massive.
This is assuming I can find a second hand one, otherwise a new one is about $20k iirc....or therabouts. Yes second hand ones are much cheaper, but it is also possibl to spend a heap of money if you are a bad mechanic...

And what's the connection with a 20 year old bicycle?
The engine is in the rider, and generally not transferable, but there are exceptions, I believe

[Brian d marge]

Jeeez. So far off the point it's not funny...
I'm about 6'+something and about 85 kg. WTF am I gonna do with a 125GP bike?
The weight penalty against a 50kg kid is massive.
This is assuming I can find a second hand one, otherwise a new one is about $20k iirc....or therabouts. Yes second hand ones are much cheaper, but it is also possibl to spend a heap of money if you are a bad mechanic...

And what's the connection with a 20 year old bicycle?
The engine is in the rider, and generally not transferable, but there are exceptions, I believe

Go back and read the first post ..then subsequent posts ...most of em are talking about racing for new people costing way to much ....

Which if you read my post is sort of ( exactly) what I was saying ...,,,and there are many people racing 125s that are bigger and taller than you or I ..and they seem to do just fine ( I think one of the leading road racers in NZ is A lOT bigger than me( I am 6 foot and 90 something kg and I am REAL sure he could kick my ar#e )

The point about racing a dinosaur ...is just as its read ....2nd in the 4 hour Iron man on a bike that was built in 86... and cost ( the main theme running through a few of these posts ) not a lot ,,,INCLUDING running costs ...

Stephen

[Fluffy Cat]

Have to go with CG there Mr Brian d'marge.Yeah at the end of the day the riders skill will almost always shine through what ever the bike.But we are not all in the same ball park and this thread was about getting more peeps onto the track.When you get people of a similar skill level racing then some things can give you an edge just look at mister Pedrosa in moto gp he has one of the best bikes and weighs 55kg's and he wins.
Now when did you last ride a gp125?.You will remember that for the average bloke the 125 is kind of small.Now throw in the average weight and nah thats not what they were designed for.
There are not that many around and the newer ones are expensive the older ones are cheaper but can cost a lot more to maintain.Plus set up costs if you dont know how to do it you need to pay someone to do it for you.
125s are really the class to get competetive youngsters into racing.I know there are a lot of older people out there on 125's but they should have moved on to bigger bikes after a few years.
Guys right superstock 250 and 600's are the way to go for most people.

As for bicycles everyone who rides knows its the rider not the bike you can't compare on that one it just does not make sense.