A new road race class and what to do with F3 rant

[Kickaha]

Now when did you last ride a gp125?.You will remember that for the average bloke the 125 is kind of small.Now throw in the average weight and nah thats not what they were designed for.
There are not that many around and the newer ones are expensive the older ones are cheaper but can cost a lot more to maintain.Plus set up costs if you dont know how to do it you need to pay someone to do it for you.
.

I know of several people in the 80kg+ bracket that have had top 5 finishes in National rounds and NZGP over the last few years,but yes the weight will be a disadvantage,so go on a diet get fitter

I disagree that the older bikes cost anymore to maintain than the newer ones,can you provide some figure?

There's a good spec 97 on trademe at the moment with good spares kit for under $6000 thats not expensive as far as race bikes go and with the right rider would be a competitive bike

Set up cost all come down to rider experience and the ability to translate how the bike feels on the track into what adjustments need to be done,some people are better at it than others,most people(down her at least) will offer advice if you are having problems and prepared to ask for help

Superstock 250 will be a cheaper class that GP125 right up until the time you kill your first motor

[Fluffy Cat]

I would say a 97 bike is a newer bike,just look at tz 250s the 98 motor fits into the 95 frame but at the top level nah they really are not competetive anymore.
Parts cost 97 Rs these bikes are 2strokes so life can be hard on some bits pistons i know that on my nsr in F3 kit spec the recomended piston ring life is 5 hours.I would guess that a gp 125 with a larger and flatter topped exhast port would have similar probs but a single ring does not cost that much.Piston would also have a time limit but not sure how long.Then there is the crank.They take quite a bashing on these little motors so again another factor.As to your question no i can't give exact figures but there will be an added maintanance factor the older the bike the greater potential for failure.And the bikes are 2strokes.
The 4stroke is more reliable and a road spek standard motor will out last any race 2stroke.Yeah they can be expensive to fix when broke but there are more around try finding similar amounts of RS 125 parts at the breakers yard.
As for weight yes rider skill always shines through think i said that last time but man 80 plus kgs for a teenage rider just think they would all be wining thhe nats if they just lost weight.The fact is the 125's were not really designed for us lard asses they are for young sprightly types.
Anyway who said racing was cheap i thought the way to go was to make it cheaper than it is but a lot of people out there dont wont or plain can't do their own fixing and 2strokes do need a fair bit of tweaking and we are talking about getting more people into the sport.

[curious george]

It does seem the only way forward is something like a super stock 600 class.
It's got to allow new bikes in, and have a large selection of old bikes to pick over.
Could you run a Ducati? Perhaps the base 749?
The only reason I was able to have a track bike was I was able to convert the RGV from road to track trim for less than 4k, and that includes the original price I paid for the bike.
Whatever class there is, I think there needs to be a budget feeder class, which the stock 600s would seem to be able to do.

[pritch]

I don't think the comparisons with attendances at motocross are entirely valid. It's some time since I was reasonably up with what was happening but the mx riders were mostly young (very?) and most were in the sport with the backing of their parents. Not all but probably most of these parents were farmers, owned a motorcycle shop, or were otherwise in business.

Most road racers of my aquaintance were doing it all on their own, generally on modest incomes. A whole different financial reality. A whole lot harder.
But they were doing it anyway.

In the 2003 IoM DVD Sean Harris talks about what it had cost him to compete, mortgaging his house, no carpet on the floor, etc.

You can't really change all that, but as someone has pointed out, a concerted and co-ordinated approach to Motocycling NZ could change the classes.

[curious george]

I think we are all in some sort of agreeance with changing classes, but to what?
I can see your point with a natural progression from the farm to MX.
Hmmmm, perhaps MCNZ needs to get into schools.

[ajturbo]

Hyosung GT250 racing.

It's either that or GN250s and you couldn't pay me to race one of them.

i'll race em if you pay me!!!!

[ajturbo]

racing......

yep i would like to get back into some sort of racing... but a 600?????
not on your life ... they go WAY too fast for me...(who has a turbo ... )

i want to race..NOT to win! but to just be there and have fun, the thrill of being in the "zone" is one that i haven't forgotten, to be able to go as fast as i can and not worry about some dick head with a radar or some other dick head pulling out in front of me!

the costs? they will come into the picture. and i think that a prody class that allows MINER mods, ie: wets, pipes, jets... stuff that can be checked easly to confirm they comply....

SV 400.....
it would have to be a naked one.. as i crash a lot...

a bucket... .. but the racing is at each end of the country {north island}( please tell me if i'm wrong here!)

(oh and a job to pay for it..hahahah)

[k14]

I would say a 97 bike is a newer bike,just look at tz 250s the 98 motor fits into the 95 frame but at the top level nah they really are not competetive anymore.
Parts cost 97 Rs these bikes are 2strokes so life can be hard on some bits pistons i know that on my nsr in F3 kit spec the recomended piston ring life is 5 hours.I would guess that a gp 125 with a larger and flatter topped exhast port would have similar probs but a single ring does not cost that much.Piston would also have a time limit but not sure how long.Then there is the crank.They take quite a bashing on these little motors so again another factor.As to your question no i can't give exact figures but there will be an added maintanance factor the older the bike the greater potential for failure.And the bikes are 2strokes.
The 4stroke is more reliable and a road spek standard motor will out last any race 2stroke.Yeah they can be expensive to fix when broke but there are more around try finding similar amounts of RS 125 parts at the breakers yard.
As for weight yes rider skill always shines through think i said that last time but man 80 plus kgs for a teenage rider just think they would all be wining thhe nats if they just lost weight.The fact is the 125's were not really designed for us lard asses they are for young sprightly types.
Anyway who said racing was cheap i thought the way to go was to make it cheaper than it is but a lot of people out there dont wont or plain can't do their own fixing and 2strokes do need a fair bit of tweaking and we are talking about getting more people into the sport.

Sorry mate, but fairly obviously you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

I bought my 125 a few months ago and have now done 5 meetings on it. In total the amount of kms i have done is around the 400 mark. What have I spent on my bike? Done gearbox oil ($20) and did the fork seals ($45 all up), also used up 2 plugs ($20 each), now tell me how thats alot more than a 4 stroke?? Alot of people seem to think that 2 strokes are "way too much maintenance, cost too much to run". Everyone seems to have the idea that 2 strokes cost thousands upon thousands to run, that is total bollix.

Yes the pistons and cranks need to be rebuilt but its not too expensive. New piston every 700kms costs $240 (half an hour to change if you know what you're doing) and crank every 1500kms (2 piston changes roughly) costs about $200 for pre 95 rs's and about $450 for later model ones. Now apart from gearbox oil around every 200kms these are all the costs that a 2 stroke incurs that a 4 doesn't (although 4 stroke has to have engine oil changed aswell). oh yeah also 2 stroke needs oil in fuel mix, but that would probably work out pretty much the same as engine oil for a 4. Doesn't sound that bad too me.

So far since I bought my bike (cost $1800) I wouldn't have spent more than $200 for random stuff for it. Just an example of how "cheap and reliable" 4's are look at the problems frosty has had with his! Bet he's spent a few $$ more than me for my 125, and the speed difference isn't all that great.

Then you say that they are too small, well thats complete bullshit aswell. As kickaha said there are 80+kg guys that have ran these in the nats and finished in teh top 3, also a guy down here would be in the 100kg+ bracket and he finished up 5th in the NZGP last year. Me, I'm just on 6 foot tall (tall skinny bastard) and don't have any major problems fitting on it.

Not trying to offend you, just want to make sure you get your facts straight.

If you were a decent rider you could buy a bike and campaign for the nats easily on less than $10k. Don't know of any other classes you could do that in.

My 2c anyway

[Kwaka-Kid]

ive done 2 seasons on a Sub$1000 (well sub!) VFR400... it has cost me.... hmm, wait i did put new plugs in once, i didnt need to but i figured lets do it for shits and giggles.

And umm, oh a new set of tyres finally, just last week. Other then that a $30 oil/filter change every 3 race meetings and the odd bit of petrol. Its not a highly competetive bike but competetive enough to be fun, and ive found the common oil changes, always letting it heat up, and never ever hitting rev limiter/over revving... And hopefully got many more seasons of only changing the oil left!

Cheap? Hell yes!

[Brian d marge]

[QUOTE=Fluffy Cat]Have to go with CG

On all or part of the post ...
First GO back and Read the First post THEN read My post the FIRST post is about turning up on an MX bike and running competively ..with out getting Smoked by the king brothers

Then the writer lament why Cant this happen in Road racing ...then he goes through the various classes and says what he likes and dislikes about them ...
leaving F3 as his final option ...THEN , says that its NOT compeditive due to a type of bike and the money some have spent ( which one assume is to expensive for him)

Now go and read MY post where I say that I like the RS 125 ,,,and also the NSR250 of which JHA over here are getting good reliable power without spending a fortune ( trade me at the moment an nsr 250 sp dry clutch magnesium wheels ,,,this one had dog fighter pipes )etc for 3k add another 2k to that to put it into the 70 hp ( probably a lot less as this one came with the pipes )
A TZR would be the same thing ( I dont have a lot of experience with these only the ones through the shop)

Snip

this thread was about getting more peeps onto the track.

I suggest it wasnt ( it was about being competative for a reasonable sum of money .....
Snip
Now when did you last ride a gp125?.
I am a Honda Mechanic in Japan ..and I still cant blag my way into HRC which is around the corner ...and have ridden worked on most of hondas products

I have ridden a couple of the older RS hondas and thats wy I like em as they really teach you about riding ..smoothness,,,keeping it in the power band ,,etc very difficult for me to go fast on straight away ( I have a 125 mx bike as well and you really have to keep the corner speed high as the thing hasnt got the power to mask the riders riding mistakes ( read the whole field goes past when you lose drive !!!)

Snip

You will remember that for the average bloke the 125 is kind of small.

The average rider wieght in America for the rs 125 is between 72 and 80 kg ....seems a bit of pedrosa dont you think???

there are a lot of older people out there on 125's but they should have moved on to bigger bikes after a few years.

Why??? they may enjoy 125 ( the age of the gp riders was quite high a few years ago


Guys right superstock 250 and 600's are the way to go for most people.

Agree with you on super stock but the reg on what can be done needs to be tight and enforced....


As for bicycles everyone who rides knows its the rider not the bike you can't compare on that one it just does not make sense.

Where oh where did I mention Bicycles ( this is a Motorcycle forum so why would I be talking about pushees . Not every one lives in NZ.... so sometimes Names used for one event may mean something different ,,,Iron man does NOT mean running and swimmimng ( remember this is a mc forum..so the chances of the writer talking about motorcycles is quite high )
Iron man means an Enduro where you complete the event on your own ,,,( I am sure you have the same in NZ)

Finally if you are thinking or are Just starting out in racing ,,,,the one of the key things is FITNESS ( ie lose some weight as has been suggested )
This is my personal problem ...( i love drinking its my hobby ,,,but its sort of gathering in the middlelike a little tyre and getting worse ,,,I have even started eating salads )

Stephen

[Fluffy Cat]

Guess i might not know what i am talking about mebe but then again as logs said he has replaced his spark plugs.......hmmm thats kind of cheaper than a crank rebuild me thinks the fact is that 4strokes are cheaper its just the way it is.
All the big guns support 4strokes and at the moment 4strokes are the way to go.There are just so many more about production wise.
I agree with you Brian the 125s ars superb bikes and they are the entry class for gp's but there are not enough of them in nz for second hand(one or two about is not enough).
Sorry about the iron man thought you meant something else he he.Enduros are something else just look at how the xr 250's did and still do occasionaly.
125s are already established in NZ and don't seem to have a prob with numbers but they have not brought that many average joes into the sport and that was the main thrust of this thread.Enduro and MX are packed out there must be something in it.
Keep your hat on mister K14 i'am just an average joe this is my first race season i do not expect to be a winner ever but i do enjoy racing!.I know a little might be enough to be dangerous.My family are were sort of in volved in the motor industry my dad helped design the Ford transit and was part of the Jag takeover team.I kind of picked up a few things on the way i know that the rs are purpose built race machines they crash well and are quite cheap to run but 2strokes are higher stressed motors and second hand ones are a potential minefield for the unwary and they are ex race bikes.They were not designed for 80kg blokes and they are small cant change that they are tiny really tiny infact almost microscopic.My mate raced an XT 600 single hybrid in the UK we did'nt even change the plugs all season the 4stroke is king, mind u he did'nt win anything either!.
For us the average joe's the 4stroke is the way to go thats my opinion not to be confused with facts.By the way i am racing an nsr 250 and an aprilia rs250 i love 2strokes just not the way to go at the moment.Brian the dry clutch on the nsr is not that good i think Matt at Tyga performance dynoed them and found a 1hp difference plus they wear out quicker and do sometimes warp the plates.The mag wheels save about 1/2 a kg which is good they turn in a bit quicker but the front end is kind of basic in all ways though the brakes are good.My nsr cost$4000 plus about $2000 in bits including pansion cans.The crank finally went a Puke last race after 15years of use K14 take note please 15years.I find that amazing for a 2stroke replacement cost $700 i can do that my self but what if you cant?.Same for the new 4stroke MX bikes quite a few have had valve ressesion probs yep that is expensive!.
Where was i? oh yeh 4strokes are the way to go its obvious eh!.

[FROSTY:Me]

I've been thinking about this a lot and for a heck of a lomng time.
We have lost our entry level class in essence.
Im not going to go into the SV650/400 purist debate because quite frankly I can see both sides of the story and both have valid points to make.
I believe we need to reintroduce a 250 production class. as in twin cylinder 4 strokes. stop laughing for a minute and think.
1) a gsx250 or zzr250 or Vtr250 is well under 7 grand to buy. so the cost is (relatively ) low.-and keep in mind that those on a budget could buy second hand
2) By being production --Ie no modifications allowed at all.It would be a cheap class to run in and the cheque book racers would have no advantage
3) by having control tyres--and the event being sponsered by a tyre maker again the big buck guys have no way of gaining. -no slicks just say as an example all must run GPR70's this season. -There are good comercial reasons for an importer to support this as long as the tyre isn't flavour of the month.
4) by keeping it to 250cc the speeds are relatively slow which is perfect for a novice racer
5) by introducing a $5.00 buyout rule (anyone can swap bikes with anyone they protest as cheating) it discoutrages the "factory" racers from suddenly having faster bikes than anyone else.
6) exposed front sprocket compulsury -making it ery difficult to run different gearing.
The whole idea is a safeish ,cheapish class for beginner racers.
It would produce very close racing in that it would be rider ability rather than trick handling or extra HP

[gav]

$5.00 ?? I'll have two, thanks...