Where the hell do they find people like this?

[Pascal]

I am a bit uncertain of what you mean by "liberalise our social conscience" though. Liberalism does not preclude socialism - liberalism merely seek to minimise the control exercised over the individual by the state. Socialism works on the principle that the prosperity of society depends upon all of society's parts - i.e. individuals - and that the best way to prosper is to give every individual a reasonable chance at succeeding within the society. Hopefully a liberalisation of our social conscience should, if anything, allow us to realise that we are all better off if we look after each other.

It is likely bad terminology from my side (English is a second language). The concept I was striving for was the increase in self, perception of individual rights, wealth, etc. without the commensurate increase in responsibility associated with that. To my mind the self importance of the individual has led to a disassociation with the sense of community.

It seems to me as if life in a more conservative, less liberal society had closer ties within the community as people had a common frame of reference and a common moral standard. Whilst in a more liberal social setting individual beliefs leads to a fractured frame of reference as people focus on their rights and/or views without so much thought for that common moral standard.

But, I've got only my own life experience to draw on and part of that is from the flawed perspectives of an old, conservative South African now seeing a world through an open, progressive New Zealand perspective.

[CookMySock]

if there is no victim, then no crime has been committed.

That is a grand statement to make, but you will fall foul of the insecure who will suggest that every second statement you make, or action you take, is designed to take away their rights.

But oh what a Utopia, where those who mean no harm and take great care with others' property and feelings may act freely without consequence. I cannot see it happening.

Steve

[gatch]

I think criminals fearing the consequences of being a cunt towards others would be fantastic.

"I could knick that guys ferrari, but they'll cut off hands if I get caught" etc..

I don't give a rats ass if it's inappropriate or not pc for people to fear the law, people who aren't cunts to each other wouldn't have a problem eh..

Irregardless of all the above, the ideal would be something like this.. Never going to happen, but still a nice idea..

http://www.thevenusproject.com/

[scissorhands]

The end of our age age is upon us anyway.

We have a health system where peoples health is deteriorating

a justice system with little justice

an education system where dumbing down is the norm, kids were brighter 10 years ago

will take a bit to pull us out of this hole

4 generations of poor eating habits, is where I would start....

[Trouser]

I don't give a rats ass if it's inappropriate or not pc for people to fear the law, people who aren't cunts to each other wouldn't have a problem eh.
http://www.thevenusproject.com/

The main problem is people living in fear of the law who have done nothing wrong. Called systemic oppression. Next step GESTAPO. Being ratted out by your neighbor for saying Herr Key is doing a poor job.

[mashman]

I think criminals fearing the consequences of being a cunt towards others would be fantastic.

"I could knick that guys ferrari, but they'll cut off hands if I get caught" etc..

I don't give a rats ass if it's inappropriate or not pc for people to fear the law, people who aren't cunts to each other wouldn't have a problem eh..

Irregardless of all the above, the ideal would be something like this.. Never going to happen, but still a nice idea..

http://www.thevenusproject.com/

A Resource-Based Economy... dunno why everyone seems to think it's so unobtainable... it's just a simple shift in thinking... and would cure one hell of a lot of problems...

[Mikkel]

The end of our age age is upon us anyway.

We have a health system where peoples health is deteriorating

a justice system with little justice

an education system where dumbing down is the norm, kids were brighter 10 years ago

will take a bit to pull us out of this hole

4 generations of poor eating habits, is where I would start....

I'm not quite that pessimistic, all in all we are very well off indeed - even if some things are starting to slip we are - materialistically - better off than we have ever been. But we do need leaders who are visionary and inspiring. Someone who can introduce a trend of rising expectations instead of populistic politicians who have an event horizon of 3 years and who get elected by appealing to the lowest common denominator and playing on people's fears. Politicians who don't marginalise minorities or strive for short-term returns at the cost of long-term sustainability.

We really need people to start being honest - and by that I specifically mean being willing to gaze inward and address their own shortcomings, that and being willing to call a problem a problem instead of wrapping it all up in a nice tidy package of politically correctness.

[meteor]

Mikkel... Hear what you're saying but I think you've put too much emphasis on the word fear and taken it out of context.. Judith Collins quote of "respect and fear of the law" I take to mean respect of the laws of the land and fear of the consequences for breaking them. At the moment, neither is the case.

Unfortunately the Y generation has been brought up being told all about their rights as individuals and not taught that their 'rights' come with responsibilities and consequences. The rights of the individual should not outweigh the rights of society and if the individual acts against societies rules... then fuck him... off to jail he goes (and I mean jail not a country club).

My other bitch is parents who forget they have a responsibility to raise children and not to be their kids best friends. Support the kids but don't pander to them and if the little darlings are in the wrong... fucken do something about it... support what is right, at school, on the field, in their relationships, with the law... whatever. Teach them to fit in and contribute to the society that grants them all their rights and protections.

My 2 cents.

[gatch]

A Resource-Based Economy... dunno why everyone seems to think it's so unobtainable... it's just a simple shift in thinking... and would cure one hell of a lot of problems...

It definitely would be a better place.. Being able to have stuff based on whether the technology is available or not, rather than whether you can afford the exorbitant prices that the powerful can command..

But because it means asking everyone in the world to give up their religion and their money, it's like pissing right into a hurricane..

Shit, they can have both of mine..

[Mikkel]

Mikkel... Hear what you're saying but I think you've put too much emphasis on the word fear and taken it out of context.. Judith Collins quote of "respect and fear of the law" I take to mean respect of the laws of the land and fear of the consequences for breaking them. At the moment, neither is the case.

Well, if that is the case then she should learn to express herself more clearly. Still, anyone who want fear to play a role in regards to law does not belong in a democrazy. We ought to be very vary indeed of anyone who wants to make the population fearful - irregardless of the circumstance. Have a look overseas and consider what culling of civil rights and privacy has been introduced by blinding people with fear - it is a slippery slope and you need to speak up against that trend whenever you encounter it.

Unfortunately the Y generation has been brought up being told all about their rights as individuals and not taught that their 'rights' come with responsibilities and consequences. The rights of the individual should not outweigh the rights of society and if the individual acts against societies rules... then fuck him... off to jail he goes (and I mean jail not a country club).

I agree and I disagree. I agree insofar that people need to understand that the world doesn't revolve around them - but I disagree insofar to your attitude of punishment. The deprivation of freedom, or any other judicial penalty, should only be incurred when breaking a law that makes sense - at the moment some aspects of the law are hopelessly behind the times. Treating the general population as being idiots will either incur a violent reaction or slowly but surely turn the general population into idiots - it can not be any other way.

My other bitch is parents who forget they have a responsibility to raise children and not to be their kids best friends. Support the kids but don't pander to them and if the little darlings are in the wrong... fucken do something about it... support what is right, at school, on the field, in their relationships, with the law... whatever. Teach them to fit in and contribute to the society that grants them all their rights and protections.

Well, then you should also have a bitch with people who pander their friends and doesn't tell them to sort their shit out when they are in the wrong - because that stuff happens as well.

But other than that, I agree whole-heartedly. These days some kids are almost like a hobby for their parents - i.e. all fun and no consequence.

My 2 cents.

I doubt that, these days 2 cents equals 0 cents - that was worth more than 0 cents

[mashman]

It definitely would be a better place.. Being able to have stuff based on whether the technology is available or not, rather than whether you can afford the exorbitant prices that the powerful can command..

But because it means asking everyone in the world to give up their religion and their money, it's like pissing right into a hurricane..

Shit, they can have both of mine..

Resource management at it's best to be its best, right person, right job, self-policing society... mmmmmmaybe... I reckon the number crunchers and politicians would welcome the break to be honest.

[Pascal]

I agree and I disagree. I agree insofar that people need to understand that the world doesn't revolve around them - but I disagree insofar to your attitude of punishment. The deprivation of freedom, or any other judicial penalty, should only be incurred when breaking a law that makes sense - at the moment some aspects of the law are hopelessly behind the times. Treating the general population as being idiots will either incur a violent reaction or slowly but surely turn the general population into idiots - it can not be any other way.

Examples?

/10 chars

[NinjaNanna]

We really need people to start being honest - and by that I specifically mean being willing to gaze inward and address their own shortcomings, that and being willing to call a problem a problem instead of wrapping it all up in a nice tidy package of politically correctness.

And yet here you are starting a thread deploring Judith Collins for doing just that. All because you took exception to her use of the word, fear. Which I might add - I and others here believe you to have taken out of context.

Perhaps if our politicians didn't spend their whole term in office being second guessed and religously trying not to be misunderstood then perhaps they could actually do some good.

[NinjaNanna]

My personal hypothesis is that the lack of respect and regard for other people arise from something different than what we are discussing here. That is caused by a shift in values towards materialism combined with the fact that we are well enough off that we do not feel that we need other people in order to prosper. I.e. independence is being substituted with indifference towards your fellow citizens.

Whilst I disagree with you on the use of the word fear - in my view the above is true wisdom

[Mikkel]

And yet here you are starting a thread deploring Judith Collins for doing just that. All because you took exception to her use of the word, fear. Which I might add - I and others here believe you to have taken out of context.

Doing just what? Do we really need the minister of police to tell us that it is a problem that three officers were committed to hospital due to violence? See, if we need to be told that - then we have already become idiots and there won't be much we can do about it. When I say willingness to address problems, then I am referring not to obvious problems, but the problems which we'd rather pretend does not exist because facing up to them makes us uncomfortable.

Anyway, she may have chosen her words badly or she may have meant them as she spoke them - we shall never know for sure. You have got to wonder if it wasn't a crack in the varnish showing a bit of true colour - you can not afford not to wonder.
But, blunder or not, it is important to sit up and take notice when your publicly elected politicians start using words like fear in that context. It is also important to speak up and point out that it is unacceptable.

Oh, and as we have established before in the scottish thread - what you (and other here ) may believe is of no significant consequence. The word fear was clearly used in the context "I think it's extremely important that we start to rebuild the respect and fear for the law that we expect" - if we can trust whoever the unnamed journalist who wrote the article and his/her sources. I know you can read, but I have a nagging feeling that you didn't quite get what she said - therefore I have high-lighted the words I consider significant in bold letters. If you still fail to grasp the context, let me know and I shall be happy to break it down for you.