A little bit here a little bit there

[pete376403]

Aussie is always going to have the advantage of being able to dig up large amounts of countryside and sell it to China and India. NZ has nothing comparable to the vast reserves of iron, coal, bauxite, uranium, etc., that Aussie has. As long as there is that difference, Aus will always be a wealthier country, able to afford a higher standard of living.

[Winston001]

Simply put it this way, the gap has always been there and based on both the countries economic growth, development and performance from the past and to date one can only say that we can try and address certain issues within our abilities to ensure the gap doesn't further increase. I.e. the above initiative by the government to reduce income tax of higher earners is an incentive to retain our highly educated/highly skilled people in the country.

I think even John Key stated that the gap will remain there. Australia is a much larger economy than NZ and there are certain areas where we simply cannot compete therefore cannot compare......

This is one of those truisms which most people believe but is actually wrong. Prior to 1970 the $NZ was worth more than the $A - our economy was valued higher. In 1973 $NZ1 = $US1.19. We were well above the US dollar.

Switzerland with no minerals at all and no natural resources (except tourism) has a much stronger currency than Australia. For that matter Norway Sweden, Finland and Denmark have very strong economies and currencies, with the only significant resource being oil off the coast of Norway.

So it's not at all impossible for a secure island nation in the south pacific to attain economic security. If we have a problem its that we've lost our vigour, our drive to stand up for ourselves. The other problem IMHO is that we are not an homogeneous society. Instead we are composed of splinter groups who argue with each other. We do not work well together.

[rainman]

So it's not at all impossible for a secure island nation in the south pacific to attain economic security. If we have a problem its that we've lost our vigour, our drive to stand up for ourselves. The other problem IMHO is that we are not an homogeneous society. Instead we are composed of splinter groups who argue with each other. We do not work well together.

Indeed, and well put.

[Pascal]

So it's not at all impossible for a secure island nation in the south pacific to attain economic security. If we have a problem its that we've lost our vigour, our drive to stand up for ourselves. The other problem IMHO is that we are not an homogeneous society. Instead we are composed of splinter groups who argue with each other. We do not work well together.

Any theories as to why?

[slofox]

Prior to 1970 the $NZ was worth more than the $A - our economy was valued higher. In 1973 $NZ1 = $US1.19. We were well above the US dollar.

Switzerland with no minerals at all and no natural resources (except tourism) has a much stronger currency than Australia. For that matter Norway Sweden, Finland and Denmark have very strong economies and currencies, with the only significant resource being oil off the coast of Norway.

So it's not at all impossible for a secure island nation in the south pacific to attain economic security. If we have a problem its that we've lost our vigour, our drive to stand up for ourselves. The other problem IMHO is that we are not an homogeneous society. Instead we are composed of splinter groups who argue with each other. We do not work well together.

Prior to the 1970's and the EEC agreement, we rode on the back of British imports of our produce - at inflated prices at that. Britain joining Europe put paid to all that and IMO it has been all downhill since then. I'm not sure we have lost our vigour as you put it - I am not sure we ever had any back then either... Essentially, we were subsidised by Britain.

[mynameis]

How exactly am I selectively quoting you when I quote your entire comment but for your previously unfounded claim of selective quoting? Idiot.



Reading comprehension, you need to work on it.



Well, what do you understand their job to be then? I prefer my politicians to be accountable, thanks.

As to the rest of your post, you're saying the gap will always be there, and thus we won't catch up. So the much-trumpeted plan to catch Aussie, which the Nats are paying good money to cretins like Brash to work on (talk about bludging) is doomed to fail, but it's all right, because no-one thought it would work anyway and isn't he nice, that nice Mr Key?

If only there were some intelligent right wingers in this country.

Hmmm right lets see who the Idiot is here with comprehension problems:

My original post:

Not only is it an incentive to save and move the nation towards being more aware of saving up and not living on credit.

It also helps retain our highly skilled, highly educated people in the country which we need if we are to bridge the gap between us and other countries like Auzzie.

Your selective quote and reply:

So it was you voters Don Brash was recently referring to?

...bridge the gap between us and other countries like Auzzie.

What makes you thin we a) can catch Aussie, and b) should?

In the nutshell if you can't even read and understand your own posts and others and don't know what you're quoting/not quoting or replying, chances of you being taken seriously is low.

Well, what do you understand their job to be then? I prefer my politicians to be accountable, thanks.

If your understanding of what the governments roles and responsibilities are so poor than there might be no point in replying to your posts but the politicians and government cannot be accountable for EVERYTHING that happens in our country.

Let me give you can example: Terrorists acts in US, our government has almost no control over it yet global terrorism affects us, financially and in other ways as well.

Now go on show your level of knowledge by asking how how how??

As to the rest of your post, you're saying the gap will always be there, and thus we won't catch up. So the much-trumpeted plan to catch Aussie, which the Nats are paying good money to cretins like Brash to work on (talk about bludging) is doomed to fail, but it's all right, because no-one thought it would work anyway and isn't he nice, that nice Mr Key?

If only there were some intelligent right wingers in this country.

Again lets see who cannot read and understand and has comprehension problems.

I never said we won't catch up, I just said the government is taking measures to ensure the gap doesn't increase further. I never commented about whether it will close, remain the same or increase.

If only there were some intelligent right wingers in this country.

I take it you have something against educated, well paid right wingers since you're not one.

[rainman]

Hmmm right lets see who the Idiot is here with comprehension problems

Why I am bothering with this I will never know, but...

My original post:

My question regarding selective quoting was about your second post I replied to, not the original one. Not that I think I was selectively quoting in the first case, but it is obvious I cannot be in the second case.

politicians and government cannot be accountable for EVERYTHING that happens in our country.

But they do have to do their job - and economic performance is a key part of that job. Besides, the Nats have set this up as their own mission - the Brash taskforce and all that - so it is quite reasonable to hold them to account for failing to deliver on their own goals, rather than giving them an open free pass because you voted for them and don't want to feel like an idiot for doing so.

I don't think we can easily catch up with Australia now - too little real economy left after the last lot of free-market "reforms" and privatisations - and that the whole "catch Aussie by 2025" narrative is just a smokescreen for the Nats to pull through a bunch of further changes that will benefit them and their mates, but further ruin the country. I note with some dismay that people like you soak this crap up like it was gospel from on high. My initial questions to you were intended to provoke your thinking in the direction of possibly considering that you're being sold a crock of shit, but it's clear this is a lost cause, and I'll leave you to your misguided bliss.

I never said we won't catch up, I just said the government is taking measures to ensure the gap doesn't increase further. I never commented about whether it will close, remain the same or increase.

True, you very neatly didn't take a stand on the issue, despite that being the essence of what I was asking you. But you did say:
"the gap has always been there" - as others have pointed out, not true.
"I think even John Key stated that the gap will remain there." - a reasonable reading of this is you think we can never catch Australia in economic performance terms. The gap has always been there and even JK thinks it will remain. Perhaps if you disagreed with this you might have said "JK think it will stay but I disagree..."

Given you were using this as a core plank of your defence of increasing GST and lowering taxes for the rich, I'm afraid your argument, such as it was, loses some vigour.

Incidentally, I think the tax issue is one NZ is heading in completely the wrong direction on. As the boomers start to retire and demand more services we should be raising taxes for a while until that cohort passes through the system. Possibly (and very carefully and selectively) lowering services too, once again for a while. At the same time, of course, we should be preparing to be a whole lot poorer as the world starts being forced down a path of reduced ready energy availability, but that's another whole different issue.

I take it you have something against educated, well paid right wingers since you're not one.

Intelligence, not education. Indeed I am not an educated, well paid right winger. I am university educated, have at times been very well paid - currently I'm adequately paid, and depending on contract work volume as the market picks up, that might change back to well paid - but I am by no means a right winger. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt - but then I grew up.

[Pascal]

I don't think we can easily catch up with Australia now - too little real economy left after the last lot of free-market "reforms" and privatisations - and that the whole "catch Aussie by 2025" narrative is just a smokescreen for the Nats to pull through a bunch of further changes that will benefit them and their mates, but further ruin the country. I note with some dismay that people like you soak this crap up like it was gospel from on high. My initial questions to you were intended to provoke your thinking in the direction of possibly considering that you're being sold a crock of shit, but it's clear this is a lost cause, and I'll leave you to your misguided bliss.

Objectivity is under O in the dictionary.

[rainman]

Objectivity is under O in the dictionary.

So it is, although I'm unsure as to why I should particularly care.

Or perhaps you were looking for Randian Objectivism?

[Pascal]

So it is, although I'm unsure as to why I should particularly care.

Because you are lacking it? Consider for a moment that you are lambasting the current government for lack of economic progress within a year whilst coming out of a recession and with a serious budget deficit courtesy of our previous masters. Yet, can you point me at a quote from yourself criticising the previous Green / Labour government for their lack of real economic progress during a time of international high economic growth with record surpluses?

[rainman]

Because you are lacking it?

Um, dude, this is politics - an arena where subjective opinions are to be expected. Or do you mean the Kiwi concept of "balance" - where if I say something bad about one group I must say the same about another, otherwise "it's not fair"? If so, get a grip.

Consider for a moment that you are lambasting the current government for lack of economic progress within a year whilst coming out of a recession and with a serious budget deficit courtesy of our previous masters. Yet, can you point me at a quote from yourself criticising the previous Green / Labour government for their lack of real economic progress during a time of international high economic growth with record surpluses?

Fair enough, I should probably give the Nats a chance to achieve something. Problem is that achievement is usually correlated with action, and Mr Relaxed of Wellington has such a laissez-faire hands-off approach (even to his mythical cycleway) that it doesn't take a genius to figure out fuck-all is going to happen other than the predictable rorting and pillaging. Thus my point about catching Aussie - it's a crock, a smokescreen put up to provide an excuse for them to rape the country once more for the benefit of the wealthy, and the idiots around here who feel they are "wealthy" because they doing just a bit better than their peers stand by and glibly wave them onward. Key and his happy cronies are continuing the policies and practices that have failed elsewhere - perhaps because it suits them personally, perhaps because they're just damned incompetent.

I have certainly criticised the previous government for lack of sufficient long-term development and planning - I am not a Labour supporter (but would pick Cullen over English any day of the week). But they were different times - relative plenty rather than the second great depression, just about, so calling for different actions. (In the case of this lot, some action). I have certainly sent emails to MPs encouraging them to address various issues, even with suggestions as to how to do it. These have often been critical of their current performance. And sure, Labour did not do everything right, and they are also captured by ideology to a degree, but at least they applied some intellect to the process.

I don't generally criticise the Greens over economic issues because a) I think the Green New Deal plan they put up has real merit, and b) they will never be able to meaningfully affect core economic policy anyway.

[Mudfart]

theres not much point in getting worked up about the Nats, or Natzis, (lol thats a great new name for them aye?), if NZ wins the rugby world cup, the Natzis will ride the joyous spirit and national celebration all the way to the ballot boxes.
This despite the fact that the majority of voters are getting raped in the rusty sherriffs badge every payday, petrol fill up, vehicle rego time, PAYE, GST etc... Now how does that work? The minority of rich population are convincing the majority of middle class voters to go with the natzis? I smell a rat, because when nats won the last election, I asked loads of people who they voted for and at least 75% said labour or anyone OTHER than Natzi party. And I DONT only hang out with labour voters. Its just Natzi supporters are sooooo rare. So hard to find......

[Oscar]

theres not much point in getting worked up about the Nats, or Natzis, (lol thats a great new name for them aye?), if NZ wins the rugby world cup, the Natzis will ride the joyous spirit and national celebration all the way to the ballot boxes.
This despite the fact that the majority of voters are getting raped in the rusty sherriffs badge every payday, petrol fill up, vehicle rego time, PAYE, GST etc... Now how does that work? The minority of rich population are convincing the majority of middle class voters to go with the natzis? I smell a rat, because when nats won the last election, I asked loads of people who they voted for and at least 75% said labour or anyone OTHER than Natzi party. And I DONT only hang out with labour voters. Its just Natzi supporters are sooooo rare. So hard to find......

Natzi?
How droll...I bet your head hurt after coming up with that one?

It's amazing how after nine years of Labour, everything is the current Govt's fault after only 15 months. Short attention span, huh?


Ps. It's spelled "eh".

[Mudfart]

Natzi?
How droll...I bet your head hurt after coming up with that one?

It's amazing how after nine years of Labour, everything is the current Govt's fault after only 15 months. Short attention span, huh?


Ps. It's spelled "eh".

no, i made it one the fly as I was typing. My head only hurts after I quailfy genius on the intelligence quotient tests we all invariably have to partake in. sorry if you don't understand A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G of what has just been stated, I forgive you for being from the shallow end of the gene pool, but not for being a Natzi. You can play the blame game back to the first elected party, are you sure Labour wasn't already elected onto a sunk Natzi vessel, I mean I DO remember the Natzi party introducing individual employment contracts back in the early 90's. Gee that really destroyed the unions in the workplace. And back in those days I wasn't considered responsible enough to vote, however I imagine I was better informed than many of your fellow shallow end waders.
Best make sure you got your water wings on Jimmy, we don't want you drowning, in the knee deep water............So whats spelled eh?
Is that the sound the primate made when he slipped one passed your mums goalie?

[Oscar]

no, i made it one the fly as I was typing. My head only hurts after I quailfy genius on the intelligence quotient tests we all invariably have to partake in. sorry if you don't understand A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G of what has just been stated, I forgive you for being from the shallow end of the gene pool, but not for being a Natzi. You can play the blame game back to the first elected party, are you sure Labour wasn't already elected onto a sunk Natzi vessel, I mean I DO remember the Natzi party introducing individual employment contracts back in the early 90's. Gee that really destroyed the unions in the workplace. And back in those days I wasn't considered responsible enough to vote, however I imagine I was better informed than many of your fellow shallow end waders.
Best make sure you got your water wings on Jimmy, we don't want you drowning, in the knee deep water............So whats spelled eh?
Is that the sound the primate made when he slipped one passed your mums goalie?

Jeez, you might wanna up that Ritalin dose and clean the spittle off of your monitor there, Bub. For a genius, you're not making a whole lot of sense.