Ya got to give it to Tolley - she really knows what she's about (not)

[rainman]

The education system has been rooted since proper qualifications (e.g School Cert) were thrown out

The problem with kneejerk conservatism is that it all just sounds like "I miss the good old days". Change happens. You don't have to like all of it. (Surprisingly often, though, it is actually for the better). But in order to appear to be something other than a wind-up ideology box it is obligatory to engage with the substance of the argument. Which, for clarity, is: Tolley is an idiot, QED. If Key believed in actual accountability and doing the right thing for the country he'd say "Oops, sorry, she's not up to snuff, here's a new one - so long Anne". Problem is there are few competent ministers in general - and I'd suggest even fewer in NZ conservative parties, based on recent history (I mean, they keep Muzza on) - so he has no real option. Also needs a few wimmin about the place to avoid the bad optics of looking like a party of right white men, I suppose.

I know jack about School C as I did not endure my schooling in NZ, but if it's anything like the environment I was subjected to, the present approaches are hugely better. For the kids, and their ability to actually learn shit, that is.

Democracy? yeah right!......Lotto, more like it!

Another bah humbug, damn kids, get offa my lawn response. Democracy may be crap but it does tend to beat the alternatives. I assume you're just railing agin MMP? If you're seriously defending FPP as avoiding the "vote the govt out" problem I'd suggest you go back and have another think. Is our current system perfect? hardly - look at the ACT vs NZ First issue from the last election - but once again, it is best to engage in the actual argument. Assume a bunch of people voted for Tolley as an electorate MP (astoundingly, the voters of East Cape appear to have done so - I wonder, is it something in the water down there?). Would that make her a good and competent education minister?

As it happens this lot are demonstrating a near complete contempt for actual democracy - you know, the kind that happens outside of the polling booth - by passing dubious law under urgency, appointing cronies to key positions, gerrymandering the new supershitty boundaries (allegedly - I haven't looked at the actual data yet), and committing to significant media positions that conflict with the prevaling culture (pro-whaling, mining national parks) without any hint of consultation. There may be much irrational screeching in our political landscape - from both left and right - but referring to the current govt as "born-to-rule Tories" has more than a hint of truth to it.

[awayatc]

Jeeeeeeeeeeezz Four posts and no one has slagged me. Is this proof that the tide has at last turned??

You are completely off your Tolley mate.......

Better?....

[MisterD]

Jeeeeeeeeeeezz Four posts and no one has slagged me. Is this proof that the tide has at last turned??

Even a broken watch is right twice a day mate...

[MSTRS:Me]

I can't understand, if the education system is so bad, and has been so bad for so long, that it has to be continually restructured, how did the current batch of politicians get educated well enough to be able to decide that the changes have to be made?

Many of them will have been through the schooling system of the 80s - when substance and accuracy were less important than 'the process' - and at a time when change was a constant and meaningful 'correction' was a thing of the past.

[oldrider]

1) Democracy may be crap but it does tend to beat the alternatives.

2) I assume you're just railing agin MMP?

3) If you're seriously defending FPP as avoiding the "vote the govt out" problem I'd suggest you go back and have another think.

4) Is our current system perfect? hardly - look at the ACT vs NZ First issue from the last election - but once again, it is best to engage in the actual argument.

1) True. MMP is on the cusp of democracy and dictatorship IMO.

2) True. There is a referendum pending on MMP, time for serious thinking.

3) False. I cut my teeth on FPP and rallied strongly against it, the government "hoodwinked" the nation, MMP or else go back to FPP! Hobson's choice, so that time I voted for MMP!

4) True. It was even worse, under FPP Social Credit achieved over 21% of the total vote and never won a seat! Things have improved in that respect under MMP but there is no accountability of the politicians to the electorate and the tail wags the dog in the resulting governments!

I think our "elections" are a farce, the voters just give the politicians a group of people to select their own government from and compromise means they will sell their soul to please each other's needs, rather than the electorate!

I have always preferred STV and voted for that until the final vote between FPP and MMP, so I voted for MMP rather than FPP!

I favour STV because out of all the options it seemed to carry the most accountability to the electorate rather than the party!

I am prepared to listen to counter arguments and this is a topical subject with the referendum on MMP pending.

The government seem to be playing down the importance of this (binding) referendum, I think they will hoodwink us again!

[rainman]

MMP, STV, FPP etc

I take it all (well, at least some of it) back - for some reason I thought you were an FPP fan. I like STV too, but it is likely confusing to them what isn't used to it, and I would not be surprised to see voter turnout drop as a result. There would need to be quite a big voter education process.

I think you're taking MMP a bit seriously though - it's non-optimal, sure, but better than FPP, and hardly the cust of dictatorship.

Anyway, back to the topic: what about that Tolley eh?

[PrincessBandit]

All the money saved will be spent on rounding up all the truants in Hamilton and Gisborne. Hahahahaha.
And here is me, coming into this system (at T-Coll this year) - maybe I need my head examined. I'm sure a lot of teachers are nervously wondering just how this is going to affect their jobs and the future path of education in this country. Although each generation of teachers has probably had the same worries with successive govts.