Passing when group riding - important especially for newbies

[bogan]

Where did I ever say that anyone should commence the pass before the rider in front has competed? All I'm saying is the guy who has made the pass if there is another rider behind them in a group ride, should facilitate the pass of the guy that is behind. Maybe I'm dense, but I really don't see anything here that is unsafe.

Now you can say that if you don't want a ticket, this is not a good idea, fair enough, but I'll say that I'd rather be safe than worry about getting a ticket, and staying forever in the passing lane is not my idea of safe.... for you or anyone else in the ride.

Steve - if the situation you described happens, of course.... you are already going a fair bit faster than the traffic being passed, there is no need to accelerate and also no need to check the throttle. However if you are approaching someone that is going a bit slower than the group, do you just pass 3 kph faster? That's suicide, IMO... or do you just sit until they decide to turn off somewhere?

I think you have to be quite careful in giving advice to newbies, you didnt mean it to be unsafe but it can be interpreted that way. Im not steve but ill ansewr anyway, as a group you maintain a similar following distance to the rider in front (non staggered formation of course) and accelerate and pass thus minimising any speed differential between bikers, if a rider decide the pass is unsafe they simply slow (dab of brake to let rider behind know) and all riders behind will slow too, virtually eliminating the slingshot effect

[CookMySock]

the guys who have made the pass, should try to make room for the guys behind them, so that when it is safe to make the pass, they can do so.

That happens by default. How did you arrive behind the cars to begin with if you were going slower than them? Did you pass them and slow down?

Sure, after passing, you mustn't throttle off and leave other bikes nowhere to go, but the road is plenty wide, and bikes are plenty narrow.

Either your suggestion is not well thought out, or else you have a fault somewhere in your riding habits that is causing this to happen.

I suggest just GO! and get the hell past the cars and don't dick around with it, and don't linger in front of them, which is probably the same thing you are suggesting.

Steve

[R6_kid:Me]

It's about facilitating.

Bollocks. It's about thinking for yourself. If there isn't enough room then you shouldn't be thinking about making the pass. Going by your assumption, the best thing to do would be for the lead rider to wait until there is enough room for the whole group to make the pass safely.

In saying that, when I pass a vehicle I move left in the lane after doing so just in case the rider behind me has decided to tag along. Thankfully the people I ride with are capable of thinking for themselves so I don't have to worry about trying to get five bikes past a vehicle when there is only room for one.

[CookMySock]

Where did I ever say that anyone should commence the pass before the rider in front has competed? All I'm saying is the guy who has made the pass if there is another rider behind them in a group ride, should facilitate the pass of the guy that is behind.

No, you should not be facilitating anything for anyone. Pass the car and get outa there pronto. Rider behind you will roll their OWN dice.

staying forever in the passing lane is not my idea of safe.... for you or anyone else in the ride.

Here you are thinking like a cager. On a bike, you can ride all day on the centreline and it affects no one. Sure, the fuzz will take a dim view, but at any time during a passing manoevre you may revert to the centreline in complete safety. In fact, I rarely use the opposing lane except where I am forced to. I have many many more options on the centreline, and I feel far more comfortable there.

You don't need to throw great gobs of throttle at passing for it to be safe - that rule only applies to cars and you are not a car - the rules are different.

Heres an exercise for more experienced riders; Select a lane-sharing situation where there is (at least) two lanes travelling in the same direction as you. From the left lane, lights to fullbeam, right indicator on, and move to the dashed line to your right, select a 10-15km/hr speed differential (no faster!) and start moving ahead in the traffic. Take note at this point how you feel! Are you inclined to accellerate out of your "passing manoevre" ? Practice keeping a constant speed differential of 10-15km/hr and letting your feelings subside. When you are comfortable with this, try doing the same on a two way road. Use great care! Keep speed differential constant! Look well ahead! If any problems arise, simply complete the current pass and brake gently and move back in. As soon as you pile loads of speed on you are up shit creek, so don't do it. The point of the exercise is demonstrate to you that there is no need for panic manoevring when you are on the centreline. You are quite safe here - particularly so if the line of cars you are passing (on their right - to your left) are physically unable to pass - unlikely they can or will pull out on you. Completely different story if the cars (that you are passing) have a clear road to pass - take great care on the centreline in those situations.

Curiously, it is possible to feel safer splitting forward into oncoming traffic. Suggest you explore that with great caution though.

if you are approaching someone that is going a bit slower than the group, do you just pass 3 kph faster? That's suicide, IMO... or do you just sit until they decide to turn off somewhere?

Agreed. Select an appropriate speed differential. Use your experience.

Steve

[BiK3RChiK]

As I see it, if a noob reads this and thinks 'oh, that's how they pass' and proceeds with your advice, it's a recipe for disaster!

Pack riding is vastly different to group riding IMO, and even group rides have different styles as noted in an earlier post. Being courteous to other riders in the group is necessary, but your advice could easily be misinterpreted.

[Hoon]

If you are all passing a vehicle, the guys who have completed the pass MUST stay on the gas until the entire group has made the pass.

Good advice. Unfortunate that some members see this as a good opportunity to nit pick your reasoning and beat their chest at a newer member. The OP provided an example where this is an issue but some seem to have misinterpreted the given scenario as him dictating the doctrine on how groups should overtake vehicles.

In a nutshell, the point being made is:

When overtaking a vehicle on a group ride, be mindful that there may be other riders following behind you so once you merge back into your lane, maintain your current speed and keep left if practical until the following rider(s) have completed their overtaking manoeuvre.

Simple isn't it? The decision of when to overtake or if the 5th rider should exceed the speed limit because the 9th rider is a newbie and you had BK for dinner last night is irrelevant.

[Metastable]

This thread is starting to go in a million different directions. Maybe I did a poor job of explaining the original post and peeps are just assuming a whole bunch of different things.

The whole bit about the guys further back going faster than the ones at the front... CAN HAPPEN. Now if you assume a perfect world scenario then you could just do your own thing move into your own lane and if you don't have enough experience riding in a group you might just go back to your original speed (assuming you sped up).... you could assume the guys behind you might not be piling on more speed than you.... and you might have been in the right and the guys behind you might have been in the wrong... but it is like walking across the street when you have the right of way. Do you just go and walk and trust traffic, or do you look both ways? This IMO is the same thing.... riders behind you MIGHT be piling on more speed, maybe they are not.... but the PRUDENT thing to do (imo) would be to make sure they have enough room to move in safely. Even if you are right and they are wrong... if you get into a crash are you OK just because you weren't wrong?

This whole post wasn't HOW TO AND WHEN TO make the pass, but ONCE YOU MAKE IT.... make sure you don't cause a cluster behind, REGARDLESS of who is right or wrong.

Dunno - I can't explain my thoughts any better than that.... all I can say is that in 10 years of riding and being volunteered to lead by my peers, I have NEVER had a crash in any of my group rides, with the exception of a newbie dumping it on a hairpin because she was going too slow... but it never had to do with two people getting into each other. Yet we talked about passing before each ride..... I guess we're lucky.

edit -> thanks Hoon.... that's what I meant.

[MSTRS:Me]

Describing what to do when 'pack' riding is a whole lot different to explaining how an individual should make an allowance for a following rider. Your firs post wasn't clear.

[saxet]

No, you should not be facilitating anything for anyone. Pass the car and get outa there pronto. Rider behind you will roll their OWN dice.

Here you are thinking like a cager. On a bike, you can ride all day on the centreline and it affects no one.

Steve

The advice given by OP would be good if you can gaurantee all riders think the same and have the same level of ability... Doubtful from my experience.
Riding on the center line gives you very limited options if you or another vehical needs to take evasive action. Or some one does something unusual (read as stupid)

Most of the ideas given here are damn dangerous in my opinion.
If I'm in small gruop I expect everyone to spread out and ride as individiul riders picking there own passing procedures and allowing other vehicles to pass if they wish.

I avoid large groups like the plague.

[CookMySock]

The whole bit about the guys further back going faster than the ones at the front... CAN HAPPEN.

No, its simple - don't do that. Sit on a constant speed when in groups. Don't dial up big speeds when passing anything - it takes all your options away.

...you could assume the guys behind you might not be piling on more speed than you.... and you might have been in the right and the guys behind you might have been in the wrong... but it is like walking across the street when you have the right of way. Do you just go and walk and trust traffic, or do you look both ways? This IMO is the same thing.... riders behind you MIGHT be piling on more speed, maybe they are not.... but the PRUDENT thing to do (imo) would be to make sure they have enough room to move in safely.

You are basically right to begin with, but you spend too much time thinking for everyone else.

It's simple. If it's safe to go, them commit to the passing manoevre and get 30-70 meters clear of the car you just passed. Use an appropriate speed differential - not so little that you linger in a vulnerable area, and not so fast that you dangerously close up spaces in front of you - use your experience here. Keep your eyes up and make decisions well in advance.

Trust other riders. If they prove untrustworthy, either don't ride with that group, or just stay clear of them. If they ride hard up your arse, ask them not to.

This whole post wasn't HOW TO AND WHEN TO make the pass, but ONCE YOU MAKE IT.... make sure you don't cause a cluster behind, REGARDLESS of who is right or wrong.

I agree. Do the pass, move ahead, but leave the riders behind you out of your decision making process, unless they cannot be trusted - in which case don't ride with them. You have enough to do on your own.


Steve

[Metastable]

So just to throw another wrench into this thread..... and it has nothing to do with the original post.. I got a question.

Scenario, you are on a busy multi lane divided highway on a group ride. Say you want to move from the slow to the middle lane or the middle to the fast lane, but as a group leader you see it will be difficult to get the whole group in because of heavy traffic, so if you split the group it will be difficult to get back together. As the leader, you can't trust the folks in the middle know 100% where they are going. How would your group proceed to make this maneuver in safety? Just curious to hear some answers.

[bogan]

So just to throw another wrench into this thread..... and it has nothing to do with the original post.. I got a question.

Scenario, you are on a busy multi lane divided highway on a group ride. Say you want to move from the slow to the middle lane or the middle to the fast lane, but as a group leader you see it will be difficult to get the whole group in because of heavy traffic, so if you split the group it will be difficult to get back together. As the leader, you can't trust the folks in the middle know 100% where they are going. How would your group proceed to make this maneuver in safety? Just curious to hear some answers.

move to the next lane but stay within visual range of the group, they can then move over when it is safe

[Metastable]

But now you have just nominated a lead rider and that person might not feel comfortable being lead.... now you have a potentially flustered lead.

[bogan]

But now you have just nominated a lead rider and that person might not feel comfortable being lead.... now you have a potentially flustered lead.

eh, the rider at the front was always lead rider! or you mean the one in the middle, If he/she isnt capable of making his own way through traffic to rejoin the leading group I wouldnt be comfortable on a ride with them to begin with. Your posts seem to indicate you think group riding must remain as a rigidly positioned group throughout the whole ride, the group rides I've been on it been a case of stay together where possible, if not we will join up again before any major turn-offs etc, and always ride as you are comfortable, not pressured to keep up. I've passed slower riders during group rides for that reason.

[MSTRS:Me]

Unless the ride is planned to exit your multi-lane road real soon, does it really matter if the group is temporarily split? After all - where are they going to go. The following riders should be able to see what the front group is doing. and adjust their lane or catch-up as and when it is suitable.