A new road race class and what to do with F3 rant

[That Guy]

am a long time motocross rider recently converted to road racing which I have really enjoyed, but have had some frustrations with as well.

Motocross in New Zealand is far better patronised than road racing; and some of the problems I think lie in the fact that if you want to start road racing - there is no clear machine nor class to ride in. If you start in motocross (as a senior lets say) you either get a 125/250 4str or a 250/450 4 str. That's it. $10,000 gets you an immediately competitive machine; and further more there are grades so you don't go straight in against Shayne King etc.

In road racing what do you buy? 600 Sports Production is a big step for a beginner - seriously fast machines but also you are put straight in with Craig Shirrifs etc. Obviously not Superbikes. 125s are a great class but we don't all weigh 60kgs and are under 5' 8'' either. 250 GP bikes? If you can find one and are prepared to fiddle with jets at every track?

So (clubmen's excepted) Formula 3 it is then. What to get? 10 year old thrashed 400 or 250 2 stroke? Ducati 750 2 valve? SV650? KTM motard bike? 125 GP bike? Whichever you choose you can guarantee someone has a seriously expensive SV650 or ZXR440 which will smoke your mildly tuned RGV250 or VFR400. Bikes like Fitzgerald's SV650 are nice - but $30k is required to get the same spec as the rules for F3 are so unrestrictive.

I turn up and race with my chosen machine (RGV250) and have a blast. However getting smoked on the straights by hot SVs and ZXR440s, in the corners by 125s and getting banzai-ed by upright motards makes the anticipated goal of pitting your skills against another rider a bit shrouded in mystery. How good am I really? In motocross I'd be up against 25 bikes all of the same type and it was clear. In F3 you have no idea because the machines vary in performance so wildly.

I don't think the argument that we must have a $3000 bike available to race holds any merit. Thos $3000 machine cost heaps to keep going anyway. Many hundreds of MX riders happily spend $10,000-$15,000 on their chosen machine. If the bikes are around this cost (probably no more than $15k) I don't think that will turn people off. In fact I think the current situation is actually worse as more like $30,000 is required to win F3 at national level.

Tim Gibb's idea of the SV650 rent-a-racer was a great idea but letting them into F3 killed it really.

Having had a reasonably successful season in F3 I want to upgrade but what to get? It is probably cheaper to get a production 600 than try and take on Terry's SV650 or Jason Easton's Tigcraft. But once again I'm not anywhere near fast enough to mix it up with Shirrifs (or Jason or Terry either) etc.

If we have a strictly controlled SV650 class (or similar) I'd be in. If it was popular enough you could grade it too. Obviously you need numbers to turn up to grade classes but this is I think why motocross is so successful and road racing less so. Most riders want to turn up and have a fun day racing others; not looking over their back after 4 laps hoping to not be in the way. In motocross you race in the grade your abilities are ready for. Not in road racing and this is why it lacks appeal.

A chicken & egg problem granted - but if 1 type of bike was chosen and we stuck with it; eventually I think we'd get there. With the 7 or so different types of bikes allowed in F3 at the moment we'll never get there. I think performance wise the SV650 is ideal but it would be better to be able to include more manufactures for many reasons. My idea would be this:

Have a graded 600 class:

600 Sports Production would stand as is. Then also have a 600 Street Stock class, perhaps like the R6 cup in the UK: www.r6cup.com/about/technical.php

All you can do is an end muffler and sprockets. Nothing else apart from a race fairing and foot pegs etc - but no engine modification at all (possibly seal engines somehow?) and street tyres. No braided lines, no lighter wheels. No wets. No different fork springs or shock springs or valving. No power commanders or air filter. STOCK. Perhaps you could have a Stock Warrant of Fitness type system. Have a detailed scruitineering (perhaps bike shops could do this) and you get a sticker that lasts for 6 months or whatever certifying the bike is standard. It also means the 600 you buy is not a dead investment because with a bit more you can step up to 600 Sports Production once you are fast enough.

To prevent Shirrifs etc entering both classes and scaring off the riders wanting to enter in a lesser grade; any rider who has finished in the top 10 at the nationals 600 Sports Production or Superbikes; would not be allowed to enter, or perhaps it could be done by lap times? Each circuit could have a lap time grade that if consistently met mean you get promoted. Whatever the system the goal would be that riders could buy a competitive bike that everyone else had; go racing for a reasonable cost and not go straight in against the best riders in the country. By also exlcuding say the top 10 it would let up and comers come through easily by being noticed as the SuperStock champion not just the fast 18 year old who got 11th in 600s.

The machine chosen needs to be in production today as well, of course. I think 600s are the natural choice.

At a smaller club meet the classes could be run together if there weren't enough riders available, but scored separately, and street stock would start behind Super Sport. Make it clear with different number plate back ground and colours so the crowd know what is going on.

Ideally this class would take over from F3 so if planned properly; you could announce that in two or three years time 600 Street Stock will merge with F3. Older F3 bikes can go into a pre '89 type class. (Pre '95?)

Good idea?

[Blakamin]

best make it ducati 600's then!!!

[That Guy]

748 or 749 would be in - but not the S or R models....

[Waylander]

There should be a class just for cruisers aswell. Takes a bit more skill to ride a bike fast that wasn't designed for it. Would also help isolate those with skill from those that juat have better bikes. My opinion anyway from never being on a track in my life.

[k14]

Yeah you are definately right about the fact that there is no clear class for people to start out in. You're idea of the superstock class sounds really good, but I still think there needs to be a feeder class to that.

The main factor with the superstock idea is the cost of them is still too expensive. The second hand ones still go for around the $8k to $10k bracket and you're screwed if they have had some modifications to them, cause it would be expensive to get them back to their original condition.

I still think that 125's should be more widely promoted (although I am biased). Great to see them at the enduro last week, obviously other people want to seem them promoted more aswell. I bought my one for $1800 and thats a damn good price. It's fast enough to not get lapped by the later model ones and I still have plenty of people on similar spec'd machines. People could start out on the pre 95 model ones, which go for under $3000 normally and then after a season or 2 venture into the later model ones (95 and newer) which go for between $5k and $12k (for a brand new one). However these bikes do require a little knowledge, but so long as someone that is experienced is willing to lend a hand (as i am lucky enough to have) then it is all smooth sailing

Obviously this is all just my opinion and is a hard subject to get everyone to agree on. However the entry level classes are fairly average at the moment and something does need to be done about it.

From the success of our riders internationally in MX it is pretty obvious that they are doing something right so we should definately look at what they are doing.

Just my 2c anyway.

[JohnBoy]

you have made a very valid point, i have suffered the same problem myself this year. i decided to race and since i wasn't skilled enough to race with the big boys and also my bike is somewhat prehistoric and no longer fits into any resonable class. i looked at F3 but as you said i am not 5'9" either and weigh a lot more than 65kg so wasn't a good idea.

i would ike to see your plan actioned and even if at the early stage you could convince the race stewards to tack it onto another class (ie F3) and run with those jokers (which would a good helping hand for younger blokes) but have seperate timing and points table. maybe something like the porche (SP?) cup thats raced in the summer series.

good luck

[That Guy]

Yep my street stock idea may not be the way but you are right mx is getting it right so road should follow their lead.

I'm still not convinced $10k is too expensive - go to a MX meet and see how many $15k mx bikes there are - 50 or more. It also means there are another 50 $10k 1 year old ones and so on.

Ask Frosty how much it costs to keep a $3000 ZXR400 going.....

[Skunk]

Let me start by saying I don't race. I've been put off by the costs, and the skills I'd have to start against.
So, as a feeder class, why not old 400's and two stroke 250's? No 600's at all.
Why is F3 such a wide range of machinery and skills? Who is it helping?

[k14]

Well from what I heard, the reason why sv650's were let into F3 is because suzuki got mnz to scratch their backs and suzuki did the same in return. This is one aspect that has helped contributed to the downfall of F3, but not the sole reason.

Probably the most obvious reason is that now these bikes are all well over 10 years old, some are more than 15. These are just getting too old to maintain, parts cost alot and alot of them are coming to the end of their lives. Something needs to be done about it, just what needs to be done is the question.

[Badcat]

VANVANS!!!

they are $3500 NEW.
imagine a vanvan only race class!
i heard that were doing it in the uk and it was televised!
you could make the track like a mini-motard!
am i crazy - or just so seduced by my mighty vanvan?

ken

[SPORK]

VANVANS!!!

they are $3500 NEW.
imagine a vanvan only race class!
i heard that were doing it in the uk and it was televised!
you could make the track like a mini-motard!
am i crazy - or just so seduced by my mighty vanvan?

ken

Here you go:

You're a dick

[White trash]

Well from what I heard, the reason why sv650's were let into F3 is because suzuki got mnz to scratch their backs and suzuki did the same in return. This is one aspect that has helped contributed to the downfall of F3, but not the sole reason.

Probably the most obvious reason is that now these bikes are all well over 10 years old, some are more than 15. These are just getting too old to maintain, parts cost alot and alot of them are coming to the end of their lives. Something needs to be done about it, just what needs to be done is the question.

Bullshit sonny.

The SVs were a stand alone class in the Suzuki Central Winter Series. Suzuki no longer supported the series, all the SV owners who'd got into racing winged, MNZ opened the field to 650cc liquid cooled V-twins to accomodate them.

Anyone who seriously wants to tackle road racing, should get themselves a 250GP machine. It'll teach you more about setting up a bike in a season than you'll learn in a lifetime of riding a 600 Sports production bike.

They're cheap to buy, cheap to maintain and cheap to crash.

Changing jets each meeting? Who cares, you have a selection of sprockets to suit wind/track conditions don't you? I'd rather change jets than chain and sprockets.

TZ250 or an RS250, a few years old can be bought for sweet FA now. They have a 250gp class at national level and you can race 'em in F2 at Club level.

Want to get REAL competitive? Get a minimoto and cruise to a party at our place any Friday night. About 1am is when the racing usually kicks off.....

[mikey]

trash forgot to mention how he screams like a girl and runs an hide in the garage when police turn up

[White trash]

But That Guy, if you are seriously keen about have a 600 Superstock class started, get into it mate. The sport needs more "doers" and less "talkers" (like me).

[k14]

Bullshit sonny.

The SVs were a stand alone class in the Suzuki Central Winter Series. Suzuki no longer supported the series, all the SV owners who'd got into racing winged, MNZ opened the field to 650cc liquid cooled V-twins to accomodate them.

Just saying what I heard.

Anyone who seriously wants to tackle road racing, should get themselves a 250GP machine. It'll teach you more about setting up a bike in a season than you'll learn in a lifetime of riding a 600 Sports production bike.

They're cheap to buy, cheap to maintain and cheap to crash.

Changing jets each meeting? Who cares, you have a selection of sprockets to suit wind/track conditions don't you? I'd rather change jets than chain and sprockets.

TZ250 or an RS250, a few years old can be bought for sweet FA now. They have a 250gp class at national level and you can race 'em in F2 at Club level.

Don't rate the 250gp idea aye. There isn't enough competition around, lucky to get 2 250gp bikes to a meeting down here, maybe 10 or so at the nats. They also cost more to maintain than a 125 (twice as many pistons) and are more brutal on tyres, chains etc.

The jetting etc isnt a major issue. I can change a jet on my rs in less than 5 mins and it isn't too hard to work out what jets are required for each day. I would say 4 different sizes would do just about evey condition in NZ.