Emergency braking

[Urano]

i completely agree with p.dath.

in regard of the word "emergency" that's the whole point.
i can bet anything that nobody on this earth (excludin' maybe Colin, Ben, Valentino and some other not get full a hand fingers) lookin' the type-ball crossing your way with the type-baby running after it, NOBODY will brake the front "not to much cause i'm waiting the fork to weight".
it will NOT happen.
you, my friends, are all going to squeeze that damn lever till blood will pour from your right hand.
and more of this, it that very moment you're going to forget AT ALL the sand you've seen on the tarmac a second before, or the oil paddle or the leaf, or the cigarette package, making considerations like "well let's brake a bit less because of the fallen leaves"... given that you saw it, of course...
that's a fact.
and, is not the case to remember it, as soon as you'll pull the lever so quickly that the wheel is not weighted it will lock after half a second, loosing grip and more than that loosing completely any gyroscopic effect, and you'll find yourself trying to balance while drifting on a 200 kg block of steel on an ice floor.

the only, and repeat only, way you have to get a possibility to the weight the front wheel a bit more, and hopefully enough not to lock it, is to pound with your desperation the back brake instead of the front: it will lock quite immediately, but the front fork will be pressed down and maybe the front wheel will keep you standing right, when half a second after your are going to brake it. and beside this, after all, if you have more weight on the back wheel (like someone on the saddle with you) it will give a bit more brakin' power.
and if the back is locked, well, who cares, but if the front is locked, you're on the ground sliding on the last direction you had toward that baby.
the clutch is to be pulled as soon as possible, not to keeping engine draggin you ahead, and this will get absolutely unimportant to close the throttle, even if you'll probably close it instinctively...

that's why you have to build up an automatic reflex to use the back first, because in emergency you'll go on the automatic, not on the consideration on "how much can i pull the front not to lock it".

what to learn from this?
1- think in advance: look BELOW buses, trying to see the legs of someone who's going to come out; look at the reflex on the cars doors, to see the light of a scooter from the parking; look inside the car cabin (is "cabin" the word?maybe cockpit?) to see if someone is going to open the door haven't seen you coming...
2- take your space, in front, lateral and behind you.
3- look around.
4 buy a bike with the abs.

[FROSTY:Me]

sorry Urano I dissagree with you. I'm not rossi et al But what I do have is a few years experience riding. I'm fortunate in that I get to ride a lot of different bikes in all sorts of situations.-Road,offroad,track.
If on an unfamiliar bike about the first thing I do is see how it reacts under brakes.
I can tell you for a FACT in a serious need to brake situation I do load up the front before hauling the brakes on hard.
I'm no friggin superman nor do I fancy myself as a riding god. But what I do do is PRACTICE. 30 plus years of riding and still I practice the brakes.

[george formby]

sorry Urano I dissagree with you. I'm not rossi et al But what I do have is a few years experience riding. I'm fortunate in that I get to ride a lot of different bikes in all sorts of situations.-Road,offroad,track.
If on an unfamiliar bike about the first thing I do is see how it reacts under brakes.
I can tell you for a FACT in a serious need to brake situation I do load up the front before hauling the brakes on hard.
I'm no friggin superman nor do I fancy myself as a riding god. But what I do do is PRACTICE. 30 plus years of riding and still I practice the brakes.

Yup, test the stoppers first.
I bet you also have a "feel" for what is happening when you really brake hard. Keeping the bike up & steering either through the bars or sliding the rear to turn a lot faster, keeping your weight vertical over the bike as it wallows under the brakes & turning forces. Looking where you want to go & using all those years of experience to get their rather than fixating on the hazard. Performed in the blink of an eye.
I think learning to ride on an old dunger while still young & dumb is the best way to get that "feel". After a certain age for the rider & price bracket for bike's, risking an off by locking up the brakes or throwing the bike around to much while practising becomes very unappealing.
Bike braking is a vague science, the single biggest factor is reacting in the most suitable way for the hazard. Purely rider skill & bike awareness.

[Urano]

sorry Urano I dissagree with you.

well... it a free world
after all the best is what makes you feel safer.
i'm on the balance from about 15 years, i've done my falls, i've learned from tarmac and from other riders.
i found that building up such reaction helped in more situations, and i'm really sure i could not manage a front braking action suitable for all street and weather situations without preparation of the rear one.
maybe is that i have more practice to do.
when i'll be as experienced as you are i'll probably agree with you: by now take my words as a newbe speech...

[george formby]

well... it a free world
after all the best is what makes you feel safer.
i'm on the balance from about 15 years, i've done my falls, i've learned from tarmac and from other riders.
i found that building up such reaction helped in more situations, and i'm really sure i could not manage a front braking action suitable for all street and weather situations without preparation of the rear one.
maybe is that i have more practice to do.
when i'll be as experienced as you are i'll probably agree with you: by now take my words as a newbe speech...

I guess after a few years riding we all develop techniques which work for our bikes & ourselves. Being here means that we are also still learning & hopefully, still have open minds.

[ZX12R Hoon]

that's why you have to build up an automatic reflex to use the back first, because in emergency you'll go on the automatic, not on the consideration on "how much can i pull the front not to lock it".

4 buy a bike with the abs. [/QUOTE]

Mate, honestly. Buy a car before you need someone to buy a coffin for you.

[MotoKuzzi]

Instinctively for me it would be Front ( start loading ) / Clutch and rear brake simultaneously / start stomping down the gears, clutch still pulled in and increasing pressure on the front as i'm looking at closing distance ahead. Then again there ain't much chance of locking my front brake without tearing the lever off its perch.

[p.dath]

Instinctively for me it would be Front ( start loading ) / Clutch and rear brake simultaneously / start stomping down the gears, clutch still pulled in and increasing pressure on the front as i'm looking at closing distance ahead. Then again there ain't much chance of locking my front brake without tearing the lever off its perch.

As a matter of interest, you stomp down the gears without engaging the engine again, so you can "escape" at the end?

[Urano]

4 buy a bike with the abs.

Mate, honestly. Buy a car before you need someone to buy a coffin for you.

don't see smileys, so i have to suppose you are serious.

1- i really hope to avoid that need.

2- do you think abs is a bad thing on a bike?

[p.dath]

don't see smileys, so i have to suppose you are serious.

1- i really hope to avoid that need.

2- do you think abs is a bad thing on a bike?

Considering the dangers of a front wheel lock while emergency braking, I think ABS is a "good thing" (tm).

[MotoKuzzi]

As a matter of interest, you stomp down the gears without engaging the engine again, so you can "escape" at the end?

Ok, I don't consider myself an expert rider by any means but if you have been around machinery a long time you absorb some habits. I stomp down gears without engaging the clutch or only marginally engaging the clutch to get a feel for whether you are in roughly the correct gear for an accelaration manoeuvre if that option opens up to you to avoid catastrophe. Same as you might in a manual car when you have depressed the clutch and braked heavily but then realise you need to accelarate so you choose a gear you think is going to give you the right option for that based on your subconscious assessment of your road speed and accelaration required.

[ZX12R Hoon]

As a matter of interest, you stomp down the gears without engaging the engine again, so you can "escape" at the end?

Yes, why wouldn't you? If you brake well on most bikes you will be stopping quicker than a car can. A lot of guys pat themselves on the back and think it's a good thing. Trouble is it's only a good thing if you don't have a ton of steel bearing down on you from behind, about to sandwhich you between the car you just avoided hitting and itself. If you have the engine running and the right gear you can get out of the situation.
The comment about down-changing. What's the big deal about not engaging the engine? I don't understand why you consider that a problem or unusual??

[sinfull]

Yes, why wouldn't you? ??

Try it ! A couple of times, once in neutral and then in 2nd !

Or ask a few racers what happens when they hit a false neutral while coming in hot to a corner ! Engine braking IS important ! Not only does it help with braking it also loads weight on the suspension the minute you back off the throttle ! Smack it down a gear sure, but god help ya if ya hit a false in ya panic !

I think i replaced my rear pads after a year of doing track days (two maybe 3 a month), not because they were worn, but because they had petrified through NOT being used, pretty sure all i ever do is load the suspension with engine braking !

Disclaimer : I in no way claim to be an experienced racer, but have hit false neutrals and fuck they're scary while trying to slow down!
Can say that in all the years i have been on the road, the 3 emergency occasions i've had were ,
1/ flew round a corner flat out in a 50 area and found an old lady doing a u turn just past the apex, locked the rear and slid sideways and lowsided ! 18yrs old
2/ uncontrolled intersection, i was in the wrong and never saw him, hit the rear brake and slid sidways into the car ! 19yrs old
3/ came over a rise at the ton and found a herd of cows all over the road, was twisted up in all sorts of funny angles with foot hovering over the rear brake and fingers on the front lever (front wheel was off the ground, rear probably was too, it was a good rise) made it through that herd without touching any brakes (learning perhaps) 30yrs old

[Urano]

Yes, why wouldn't you? If you brake well on most bikes you will be stopping quicker than a car can.

because it increase your stopping distance, that's why you shouldn't.
in my opinion we'll have to clearly declare which is the question: do i have to COME TO A STOP or do i have to AVOID the obstacle?
in the first case, you have a wall in front of you. there's no "escape" after: you were dumbly lookin at how your tank shines then up your eye and find a 18 meter truck exactly in the middle of the lane. there you have to stop, no question. in the second, a car suddenly stops in the middle of the lane and turn without the indicator: in that case you can avoid it, and in that case i'd probably use very little the front brake, cause stopping is not my first option (different would be if you have a truck coming in front of you on the other lane...)

so if you want to stop, the right gear at the end is completely unuseful, while the engine will continue to drag you ahead and you cannot be focused on the front wheel:
http://www.fmq.qc.ca/pdf/amorce-freinage_eng.pdf

and about stopping in less space than a car, who said that?
http://www.monteverdiclub.com/rahmen/stoptbl.htm
to me seems equal.
and maybe there's much more cases in which the car stops in less space, cause the bike is often faster in the traffic flow. it's true, the bike is lighter, but it has less tyre surface on the ground, it has more weight transfer, often faster pace and in the most cases no brakin assist.

with what data are you saying bikes stops shorter?

[Metastable]

I also don't agree with the rear brake FIRST. Now, I do agree with front and rear immediately, but the rear is just a quick stab and then start to release (on a sportbike, cruiser you keep on it) and it helps a bit while the front is starting to load. This all happens really fast. Also, you shouldn't be bracing with your arms, you need to keep them loose. If you are stiff, your reaction time for any input will be decreased. You need to brace with your upper legs on the tank.

Also, you clutch in and bang down the gears, there is no time in a TRUE emergency to be letting go of the clutch between gears. False neutral would be a bitch, but man.... there is only so much you can do.... if you are at a very low speed, you should be in first anyway.

As for practicing front end lock-up. Go to a place with some sand on the asphalt and have a go... it is great practice, but you have to let go of the brakes quickly. It happened to me when practicing emergency braking in a parking lot. It was dusty and I didn't notice. DON'T hit the rear too at first... just the front, locking up both might leave you with brown underwear.

Like I said in another thread, PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE.... it has to be second nature. Back when I was riding the street more I practiced almost every single ride in a safe place. Plus you should be practicing from whatever top speeds you usually travel. If you never practice at 120 and you ride at 120 a lot, then it is going to feel different compared to 60.

Also practice reducing speed at a fast rate plus swerve too. Another good one is to practice engaging the brakes mid corner and avoiding mid corner obstacles. (WARNING -> easy to get wrong, but it is better to do it wrong in a controlled environment... parking lot with some cones or something)

BTW, you don't have to worry about the engine engaging while downshifting and accelerating because you might still be on the throttle at tad, IF you just hold the clutch in.... just don't be letting it out between shifts.