ATGATT. Why? It doesn't affect anyone else?

[marty]

As far as I know, he survived.
But you misunderstand, ATGATT is NOT the core of my post.

Sorry, but I got that from the heading. Sure, I read the post, but it just seemed to me that you were focussed on the ATGATT.


Thread: ATGATT. Why? It doesn't affect anyone else?

[Nasty]

Sorry, but I got that from the heading. Sure, I read the post, but it just seemed to me that you were focussed on the ATGATT.


Thread: ATGATT. Why? It doesn't affect anyone else?

It's not like you would have thought of reading the title and wondering why the question was posed.

[marty]

Maybe I'm just in a difficult mood. I did ride my scooter down to the servo carrying a 5l petrol container (Empty down-full back. Did you know it costs $18 to fill a C50 scooter and 5l petrol can? Bloody hell!) just before just to celebrate this thread though. In my shorts and t-shirt. I did have my gumboots and full face helmet on though Then I did the lawns without my ear defenders on!

[Edbear]

It's not like you would have thought of reading the title and wondering why the question was posed.

Mebbe he needs to take the Pitts up to clear his head...

[Hitcher]

One sincerely hopes that if one is ever unfortunate to have (another) off, that any motorcyclists who stop to offer assistance don't sneer and pontificate about one's choices of riding apparel. Or that one may be one of "them" who gives the rest of "us" a bad name.

Based on past experiences, that is unlikely to happen. One once went down on the north end of the Rangitikei River Bridge at Bulls on Boxing Day, breaking one's collarbone in the process. The biggest risk to one's immediate well-being was being run over by lane-splitting bikers hell-bent on getting Wanganui, none of whom stopped to offer assistance.

There is also a belief that wearing ATGATT prevents accidents and minimises injuries. Any truth in such a belief can only be speculative, rather than scientific.

There are glass houses and people who throw stones. The two are incompatible.

[Nasty]

There is also a belief that wearing ATGATT prevents accidents and minimises injuries. Any truth in such a belief can only be speculative, rather than scientific.

Well some of us know that just isn't so! The gear serves a purpose - but it doesn't always save a life.

[marty]

Mebbe he needs to take the Pitts up to clear his head...

I would, but it crashed and is a write off.

Have to slum it in a Nangchang and this >>>>


now

[Edbear]

I would, but it crashed and is a write off.

Have to slum it in a Nangchang now

If that's the Nangchang I've seen, and spoken to (one of) the owners about, that's one cool plane! Okay the Pitts would literally fly rings around it but I'd love to go up in it one day! Rather that than the Pitts, actually...

[Subike]

Prevention and education
this ATGATT debate is endless,
is there and end to this problem?
how can we help, if at all?
In a way, that riders would accept as not being in contradtction to their right to personal choice?
What if?
Instead of discussing the pros and cons of all the aspects of rider saftey, skill, cost factors, statistics and injury prevention..
Could we be more pro active and collectivly produce a quality teaching aid for All riders that the ACC could fund it, as they have money set aside for specifically this , Goverment support and the TSL could distribute the aid using their current poatal system and ownership data base.
A simple interactive DVD
Issued to new riders upon applying for their learners
Posted to licenced riders with thier registration renewal forms.
DVD?
So ATGATT will it....
Reduce the accedent rate? or just the extent of the injury incurred?
There are thousands of hours of vidios and discusions on the web showing...
how to ride a bike safley and dangerously, footage of dangerous riding, and safe riding i.
how to reconise road dangers , such as pea shingle, tar snakes, and footage of what damage they can cause.
how to avoid accidents and what dose happen, not what might happen, footage of simple error accedents?
what protective gear is recomended to wear
Vidio footage of acual accedents showing injury caused by not wearing any saftey gear, some saftey gear, full saftey gear..
how to load you bike for touring, what over loading, unbalanced loads, can do on the road.
how to do basic maintenance , and show how a deflated tyre or loose chain can cause injury
who to contact for advanced training in NZ
where and how to make a claim when and if an incident happens.

I dont think it takes much to inmagine how this could be put togeather, if I, an uneducated can conceive the idea.

It would be designed as a tool for education for all, including those who have little understanding of the art of "riding to survive"
especially those who make the rules.

If such a DVD was to come from a Govt source, it would most likley be ignored and would be one sided.
If it was produced and presented as coming from fellow riders,
Then I am sure that it would reach a high percentage of riders who may never otherwise think about these things.
The information can be ignored or taken up, at the choice of the viewer.
It could be made as a serries inside the DVD, which could be used by television as a mini serries.
It could be used by so many as an education tool.

AND


If it came from us, was accepted, used, distibuted.
THEN WE ARE MAKING A DIFFERENCE.

instead of just talking about ATGATT,
advocate via education ATGATT

[Edbear]

One sincerely hopes that if one is ever unfortunate to have (another) off, that any motorcyclists who stop to offer assistance don't sneer and pontificate about one's choices of riding apparel. Or that one may be one of "them" who gives the rest of "us" a bad name.

Based on past experiences, that is unlikely to happen. One once went down on the north end of the Rangitikei River Bridge at Bulls on Boxing Day, breaking one's collarbone in the process. The biggest risk to one's immediate well-being was being run over by lane-splitting bikers hell-bent on getting Wanganui, none of whom stopped to offer assistance.

There is also a belief that wearing ATGATT prevents accidents and minimises injuries. Any truth in such a belief can only be speculative, rather than scientific.

There are glass houses and people who throw stones. The two are incompatible.

Well some of us know that just isn't so! The gear serves a purpose - but it doesn't always save a life.

No-one would suggest that the gear prevents accidents, but it sure can reduce the severity of injuries, and can indeed prevent some injuries. No-one has suggested the OP or anyone else has or would in fact berate the accident victim either. This whole thread is to emphasise that those who claim the right to go without the gear because only they are affected are plainly wrong. Others are always affected and this knowledge should be a factor in the decisions we make.

[yungatart]

One sincerely hopes that if one is ever unfortunate to have (another) off, that any motorcyclists who stop to offer assistance don't sneer and pontificate about one's choices of riding apparel. Or that one may be one of "them" who gives the rest of "us" a bad name.

Based on past experiences, that is unlikely to happen. One once went down on the north end of the Rangitikei River Bridge at Bulls on Boxing Day, breaking one's collarbone in the process. The biggest risk to one's immediate well-being was being run over by lane-splitting bikers hell-bent on getting Wanganui, none of whom stopped to offer assistance.

There is also a belief that wearing ATGATT prevents accidents and minimises injuries. Any truth in such a belief can only be speculative, rather than scientific.

There are glass houses and people who throw stones. The two are incompatible.

I don't believe that ATGATT prevents injuries, but it can certainly minimise them. I myself, have come off and sustained injuries whilst wearing ATG...luckily only broken bones. I would have lost shit loads of skin from sliding down the road without the gear though and been considerably worse off.

Whilst attending the victim yesterday, I was the 'consumate professional'. He was treated with respect and dignity by myself and others at all times.

[MSTRS:Me]

And still there seems to be a mood amongst some here that this is a thread extolling the virtues of ATGATT...and the evils of not wearing etc.
Yes, to an extent, it is about wearing the gear.
But for the hard of hearing, here it is again...
"Wear what you like, but don't justify your (poor) gear decision by claiming no-one else is hurt by it"

[caseye]

It has never entered my head to either ask who was at fault or to pontificate as to the pros and cons of having and or using safety equippment whilst helping to make sure people are safely and humanely kept alive or pass away with someone holding them.
you won't get me with the glass houses one either Hitcher, no one is suggesting that the simple application of ATGATT to a stupid knuckle dragging retard is going to stop them dying when they go head on into a car full of once happy family members.
The KDR's dont give a shit! thats what YT is saying.
Also the issue of those who it affects directly when these KDR's do go out and write themselves and others off.
It does affect others if you go to fast and crash. Fact.
ATGATT does save victims and crashee's much more pain and suffering, if it's in use.Fact.
Attitude is a major problem.Fact.
Question, what can we do to stop it becoming a legislative issue? Should we even try or should we all go back to being autonomus irresponsible individuals.
Another question.How many bikers(we are in KB's forums here arn't we?) have even the basest knowledge of first aid and are able ready and willing to use it ?
Another. How many motorcycle riders carry a first aid kit?
Or how many of us carry a small tool kit and a tyre repair outfit?
Funny ,I bet most said yes they do, to the tools and the tyre stuff!
I raised the matter of what if anything the rest of us can do about it before it becomes such a problem that the govt simply legislates us all into having to buy horrendously expensive safety equipment.
I've asked this same question before.
I've suggested that if ATGATT is proved not to have happened then we/ACC should not pay! Why the hell should we pay for someone else's incompetance and total disregard for everyone else around them?
I've had it all thrown back at me too, "I'll ride wearing what I want and no one is going to tell me different! It's my personal choice to ride wearing what I want"
Fine, take that one step further, sir whilsts crashing your car head on intothe bike were you wearing your seat belt? No, so your broken back is not the domain of ACC either!
Sir, were you wearing all your available protective gear at the time of your unfortunate mishap(coming off on a straight bit of Large chip seal road)?
If for one moment the average motorist thought that not doing all they can will reflect back on them and theirs then maybe, just maybe ,they would think. Never mind about twice. Once would be enough! not to gom out without taking all appropriate mesures.
Personal responsibility is what I'm on about.You dont do it, you dont get it=ACC.

Consider as yungatart has who else it does affect?
It's never just the rider/driver.
There are all the other people involved in accident attendance.
In traffic management.
In hospital.
The cost to our emergency and medical services could be as much as halved simply by educating people to use the appropriate gear.in conjubction with riding/driving appropriately for the conditions.
We've proved that by reducing speeds in some areas there have been less accidents.I'm not a speed freak, either way.But it's a fact, black spot, camera, accidents stop almost completely.If only the Traffic nazi's could be trusted to keep putting the cameras in the right places.
Is that a bad outcome?

[Maha]

Sorry, but I got that from the heading. Sure, I read the post, but it just seemed to me that you were focussed on the ATGATT.
Thread: ATGATT. Why? It doesn't affect anyone else?

I got the meaning of the thread Marty from reading and understanding the first post.

I started a thread a while ago called 'Troblog'...it was about a dolphin like shaped paddock on the side of a hill.
What the hell is a Troblog? I have no idea, was never question about it, but the first post was what the thread was all about.
Same in this case.
This line 'Put on some gear, and if you want to go fast..take it to the track...chances are I'll help you out there too! ...sums up the first post

[James Deuce]

I haven't posted in ages, but this thread got my dander up.

I am am one of "them" giving bikers a bad name with people who can make life difficult for bikers. I cost and am costing ACC thousands. I fit the profile of a mid-life idiot despite riding for years prior to being regarded as middle aged - Powerful bike, etc, etc, etc.

I made life very difficult for dozens of people on the day of my accident and the weeks following. I fail to see how that is any different to the premise of the OP.

I happened to be wearing ATG on the day of the accident because I was cautiously getting to know my new bike. I was knocked off my bike by a sheep at about 75 km/h and sustained injuries that are almost a carbon copy of those sustained by vinyl jacket man. It is pointless conjecture to assume that my gear saved my life. My gear helped break my ribs and caused bone deep abrasions on my elbow, knee and hand. The elbow armour was trapped between my body and the ground on impact and the 10 fractured ribs show a pattern that matches the shape of the elbow armour. The knee armour gouged the crap out of knee when the bike landed on it at a strange angle.

The only piece of gear I can point at and say it prevented a more serious injury is my right boot. My right ankle was so over-extended it pulled the front tendon off the bone and ruptured and tore the anterior ligaments running from ankle to foot. Without the boot's exo-skeleton my right ankle would have been hopelessly mangled, because the sheep hit the front wheel and highsided me over the left of the bike and in front of it. The bike then landed on my right leg which swelled to twice its normal size over 24 hours from knee to toes.

In this instance I was wearing ATG and STILL "hurt" other people.

The issue isn't simply confined to not wearing ATG. To point at other's selfish actions and try to use them as an example of what not to do due being hurt is a little creepy. IMO. I'm no different to vinyl jacket man. I wasn't skilled enough or quick enough to react and cost myself a new bike, found out that broken ribs and internal injuries are something that I wouldn't wish on anyone, and learned the cost of letting my ambition exceed my talent. Worst of all I complicated a Copper's life, made a trust spend money on a Helicopter flight that they'll have to go fund raise to pay for, wasted 3 hours of an ambulance crew's day, and prevented some helpful members of the public from completing a house move in the middle of nowhere. I scared my family too.

All of which makes me one of "them".