Collateral murder

[Genestho]

see if you can find a movie called "battle for haditha". its based on true events supposedly.

Was just going to post this, the vid made me think of that too, good movie, a completely unblinkered view. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_killings

[Dave Lobster]

Watched the first half. Goes on a bit after that.

To me, the camera lens sticking round the corner DID look like an RPG. If you're the man in the heli, as soon as that RPG points at you, you're pretty dead. Anyone here willing to take that risk with an incoming? I wouldn't.
The group round the corner, crowding round what looked like the RPG man.. ragheads do that to cover the man that's up to no good. They'd all know this..

[cromagnon]

Watched the first half. Goes on a bit after that.

To me, the camera lens sticking round the corner DID look like an RPG. If you're the man in the heli, as soon as that RPG points at you, you're pretty dead. Anyone here willing to take that risk with an incoming? I wouldn't.
The group round the corner, crowding round what looked like the RPG man.. ragheads do that to cover the man that's up to no good. They'd all know this..

You should watch the second half too: when they take out the van picking up injured people, they didnt have weapons

[Katman]

Watched the first half. Goes on a bit after that.

To me, the camera lens sticking round the corner DID look like an RPG. If you're the man in the heli, as soon as that RPG points at you, you're pretty dead. Anyone here willing to take that risk with an incoming? I wouldn't.
The group round the corner, crowding round what looked like the RPG man.. ragheads do that to cover the man that's up to no good. They'd all know this..

Bit of a bugger for some when they get it wrong though, ay?

[Milts]

Copied from my response on another forum:

It's a given that there will always be some kind of collatoral damage, war's war. Even if you did everything possible to avoid it I'm sure you'd still get some dumb fuck civillian doing something stupid and getting themself shot.
However the 'war' in Iraq is particularly difficult because it's not between two set armies in the conventional sense; in WWII or the Korean war you had two armies, two uniforms, and they went at it. Even in the Vietnam war the Vietcong were an organised military group with a (somewhat) defined territory, athough there was also obviously a lot of insurgent action.
Iraq is a step further in that, in my understanding at least, there is not much in the way of an organised opposing army, it's more a semi organised and semi autonomous insurgency. In this situation you will always have more civilian casualties. Essentially it's up to the soldiers on a case by case basis as to who to engage.

Something along the lines of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK10pqBpz8g
is almost 'excusable' because they took every possible chance to make sure it was an enemy, got the green light, and then engaged. Turns out it wasn't. However I don't think you can honestly fault the pilot in this case, he repeatedly checked with control.
EDIT: These people disagree - http://www.buzzle.com/articles/126633.html - seems much more could have been done.

I think the case you posted is a bit different for a number of reasons. For a start, there were kids involved, and the slaying of wounded. The response by the military to co-operate with the investigation looks less than adaquate as well. It's obviously harder in this situation to determine whether or not the targets were friendly, but to be honest if you're that unsure you shouldn't be firing - the consequences of accidentally killing civillians is probably worse than that of missing an oportunity to kill some lower 'ranked' insurgents, especially in a situation where you are not immediately being threatened.

I think what fucks me off most are the people who stand behind the helecopter's shooting of the 'targets' 100% on the grounds that they were carrying AKs. It's Iraq. Everyone has an AK from police, to Iraqi (friendly) army, to insurgents, to office workers who don't want their house to be looted, to shooting enthusiasts. And yet people think that carrying an AK makes you a target by default? What the fuck.

I think, and I hate to admit this, but I think I could condone it if it were a clear group of enemy soldiers in conventional warfare. Even up to shooting those trying to evacuate the wounded. However in a city when you have no way of confirming they are insurgents in the first place and there are no military medics opening fire in the first place is wrong, and firing on the ambulance is even worse.

[SPman]

It's obviously harder in this situation to determine whether or not the targets were friendly, but to be honest if you're that unsure you shouldn't be firing - the consequences of accidentally killing civillians is probably worse than that of missing an oportunity to kill some lower 'ranked' insurgents, especially in a situation where you are not immediately being threatened.

It's never seemed to worry the Yanks (or the Brits, Russians, Germans......fill space here..) before or since. Obvious point is, of course, what the fuck are they doing there in the first place!
It's obviously not to make the world a safer place.......
Oh yes...as the late lamented George Carlin said.....It's bombing brown people!

[Brian d marge]

from the link on NZ herald:

"According to US officials, the pilots arrived at the scene to find a group of men approaching the fight with what looked to be Alaska-47s slung over their shoulders and at least one rocket-propelled grenade.

A military investigation later concluded that what was thought to be an RPG was really a long-range photography lens; likewise, the camera looked like an Alaska-47."

Whoops

Me personally , with big gunships flying about , I would be ,,,very careful

Stephen

[Hans]

Nice shooting. And the problem is?

[robertvi]

the problem seems to be that the pilots can't tell the difference between a Kalashnikov and a Nikon

even when they're looking down some fancy-ass-shit telephoto optics of their own

[Smifffy]

Photographers don't know the dangers of being amongst legal combatants in a war zone these days?

[scumdog]

Not bad shooting for the range - judging by the time lapse between the gunfire and seeing the bullets starting to strike.

A shame it was innocents being hit....

[Hans]

Not bad shooting for the range - judging by the time lapse between the gunfire and seeing the bullets starting to strike.

A shame it was innocents being hit....

Not just innocents. Yes, there were two journos, who were obviously in the wrong place at the wrong time. There were also kids. I almost forgot, there were also dome guys with AKs and possibly an RPG.

This is not aimed at you specifically,Scummy, but at large portion of the public:

What do you think war's like? All wars are like this, whether just or not. The real difference isn't in the "Xbox generation" sitting behind the controls. The difference is that cameras and journos are now omnipresent. If anything, the Yanks have toned things down significantly in the long run. Can you imagine the buckets full of vomit, if someone had filmed My Lai and put it on Youtube?

[SS90]

Interesting.

Last week we where supplied with a link showing a civilian engaging in a "sport" that replicated military style "urban combat", where the "aim of the game" was to shoot targets through windows in the shortest amount of time.

Is the video in this link not another "level" of that "game"?

I can't believe that the same people who championed the "sport" can't see that while the video in this link is a tragedy
it is unfair to blame any of the soldiers involved.

This is not a fucking game.

Like Dave lobster wrote, when an Iraqi with an RPG points it at you, you are unlikely to remember.

The press are there, ok, and they must also accept the risks, they should not be in a group like that, hiding behind a building pointing their long range camera lens out from cover. That is what you do with a weapon.

I think that for some people combat is a game, but for real soldiers, it is a matter of life and death.

In the "sport shooting" video, when a target appears, you shoot it, then have a beer with your gun totin' mates in the club house.

In a war it is a different matter entirely.

[scumdog]

"It's always funny when the person getting hurt is somebody you don't know" Homer Simpson.

And war is like that....

[Hans]

Agreed. 10char.