Executive salaries

[mashman]

No-one resents paying for special skills or ability.

I do... and as corny as it sounds, it takes a team to run a country or a business... every job is important... it's how we value that job that differs... and that difference is alllllllll in the $$$$$$... great for the greedy, not so good for the run of the mill employee...

Should a Bin Man get paid less than a Dr? yes because the doctor trains for 7 years and works hard etc... yeah, the Bin Man doesn't work hard at all... in which case let the rubbish sit and let's see what happens... disease will run riot to start with... vehicle crashes caused by bin bags strewn everywhere etc... Who should get paid more again? I'd say the Bin Men as they're actually doing a job that services the whole community... not just those that are in need of medical attention... and if you don't understand that you're "social conditioning" is now complete...

Should the Telecom CEO get paid more than the guy who actually fixed the problem? or the guys that do the work? WHY? What skills does he have that are sooooo special, sooooooo important that noone else can do that job?

[Mully]

I remember it well...now we get Miriama Kamo. Dunno what they pay her but Judy was well worth the moolah.

Or Sam Hayes..... Om nom nom nom.

[Coldrider]

No, it's a hugely difficult job managing a business in a recession. Ask general motors how hard it is to stay afloat.

Steve

GM was in the shit before the recession, they continually made dinosaur gas gusling vehicles that few people wanted to buy, and were subsidised by the US government to be manufactured and stored in a parking lot.

[mashman]

BTW - Doctors get paid well also - but if you are having heart surgery - would you prefer the guy on 300k or the guy on 25k?

I'd rather have the guy who has the experience thanks... I don't care how much he's on as financial remuneration doesn't dictate competence in this day and age...

No, it's a hugely difficult job managing a business in a recession. Ask general motors how hard it is to stay afloat.

Steve

It's not hard to manage a business when you get free money to keep you going... you can spend what you like on who you like and to hell with everyone else... get out of the game with your retirement $$$ and think happy happy thoughts as you down pina colladas whilst having your nappy changed by your tuesday lady boy...

[Tank]

Should a Bin Man get paid less than a Dr? yes because the doctor trains for 7 years and works hard etc... yeah, the Bin Man doesn't work hard at all... in which case let the rubbish sit and let's see what happens... disease will run riot to start with... vehicle crashes caused by bin bags strewn everywhere etc... Who should get paid more again? I'd say the Bin Men as they're actually doing a job that services the whole community... not just those that are in need of medical attention... and if you don't understand that you're "social conditioning" is now complete...

So - are you saying that they should be paid the same - or close to it?

If so - How do you make that work?

If all jobs are getting paid the same - then I want to be paid for doing a job that I enjoy and gives me as most free time to spend with my family (as would most) - why put in all the additional effort if Im not getting rewarded for it.

Im curious to see how you would make it work?

[Tank]

Re the guy doing heart surgery on you

I'd rather have the guy who has the experience thanks... I don't care how much he's on as financial remuneration doesn't dictate competence in this day and age...

Actually - more $ comes with more experience (as a general rule) - as people generally get better with exp and are 'worth more' - or do you think there should be a set job and someone starting out should never get pat rises as jobs have a 'set rate' regardless of exp?

I dont know what you do for a living? But do you beleive that you are worth any more than someone who has been doing your job for a week?

[onearmedbandit]

I do... and as corny as it sounds, it takes a team to run a country or a business... every job is important... it's how we value that job that differs... and that difference is alllllllll in the $$$$$$... great for the greedy, not so good for the run of the mill employee...

Should a Bin Man get paid less than a Dr? yes because the doctor trains for 7 years and works hard etc... yeah, the Bin Man doesn't work hard at all... in which case let the rubbish sit and let's see what happens... disease will run riot to start with... vehicle crashes caused by bin bags strewn everywhere etc... Who should get paid more again? I'd say the Bin Men as they're actually doing a job that services the whole community... not just those that are in need of medical attention... and if you don't understand that you're "social conditioning" is now complete...

Should the Telecom CEO get paid more than the guy who actually fixed the problem? or the guys that do the work? WHY? What skills does he have that are sooooo special, sooooooo important that noone else can do that job?

Sooo, bin-man does no training but gets paid 'more' (do you mean more than he does now or more than the doctor?) than a doctor who does 7+yrs training. I don't see anyone paying a bin-man 300k a year, so are you arguing that Dr'sincome should be pulled back to that of a bin-man, or even less? If so, who the fuck is going to spend 7yrs training to be a lowly paid doctor?

Like Tank, I'm really interested to see how you reckon we can pull this off.

[onearmedbandit]

A while ago there was a protest about pay rates at a Pak 'n Sav supermarket a friend of mine owns. Shelf packers were complainig about how they were getting roughly $400 per week while their boss was earning $4000 a week. Let me ask you this Mr Shelf Packer. Did you invest all your money and time setting up a business, an extremely risky affair? Did you spend hours and hours making contacts, negotiating deals with suppliers, signing contracts? Do you go home worrying about the state of the economy, market infuences, supply and demand rates, staff issues, tax issues, etc etc? Or did you just front up one day, have an interview, get a job (only there because someone else risked it all) and go home at the end of the day with none of the above issues? Do you have the skills to run such a business? No? Then shut the fuck up, be happy someone else does so you can have an income, or better yourself, realise your potential, and do it yourself. There is nothing stopping you. Except you.

[mashman]

So - are you saying that they should be paid the same - or close to it?

Yes they should all be "paid" the same.

If so - How do you make that work?

Remove the financial system. Do what you enjoy doing... all you would have to do in return is be "something"... a full-time parent, bin man, educator, doctor, nurse, scientist, emergency service representatives, food processors, cannery workers etc... we all have "other" things we'd like to be doing... After that it's all down to logistics of resource management... nothing more, nothing less... something our current masters are unable to do judging by OUR (human beings) current progress... and all because we revere the $$$ so much... it's the only thing we really value, because MONEY values EVERYTHING for you...

If all jobs are getting paid the same - then I want to be paid for doing a job that I enjoy and gives me as most free time to spend with my family (as would most) - why put in all the additional effort if Im not getting rewarded for it.

The reward eh. Ok, would you consider, as a reward, crime becoming virtually non existent? Hunger and Poverty being removed from society over night? not to mention the fact that the lawyers and accountants can now train as Dr's, educators etc... everyone out for everyone?

[Tank]

Remove the financial system. .....

ahhh - so where does the government get the tax to build roads and hospitals?

How does the country survive when we need to get anything from overseas - like drugs, medical equipment; books for schools?

Sadly we need money for this.

Any why we are at it - If all jobs are being paid the same - who is going to to do the hard, hard physical work when rubbing suntan into hot chicks at the beach pays the same?

[mashman]

I dont know what you do for a living? But do you beleive that you are worth any more than someone who has been doing your job for a week?

15 years doing everything from pre-sales to the full SDLC (I'm generally a one man shop, I DETEST the corporate environment)... Before that (but not in any real order), bouncer, fisherman, laborer, shop assistant, dish washer, shelf stacker and likely many more including a brief stint in Kosovo for an aid organisation...

For a week, ha ha ha... but yes. Why not? The person could have been a CEO at Telecom or could have been a rocket scientist, could have been on the dole and read a book... but just because someone has less experience than me, in my field) does not preclude the fact that they could be "better" than me in any given area of my job... we all have something to offer...

Call bullshit all ya like... come and talk to the guys on the helpdesk here... we have this discussion every now and then... according the the helpdesk manager (earns just over half of what I do) and my boss (not much more than me than you would have thought), i'm worth every penny... Whereas, I realise that I do a job and that that job affects others... if one of us stops, then in all likelyhood, I have to stop doing what I'm doing... the knock on affects of that could have far reaching consequences for the "aged" we provide services for... that's all theory, but more than likely a true representative of what will happen and i'm not prepared to teswt that theory.

[rainman]

The thing is that most people who dont earn the exec salary - have no idea what the exec does or the skills that person needs. They can add (or lose) millions for a company. They can be the one that creates jobs - or ends up ruining a company putting 000's out of work.

Too true, but it is clearly not only about skills but also about who you know and how much bullshit you can spin. And there is not a lot of accountability for poor performance, in reality, despite what is claimed.

1 - only left wing nuts keep calling them Tories

My apologies, didn't think the term would cause offence. Conservatives, then.

2 - Im hoping that they will continue to improve the economy that was fucked under labours watch - as such businesses will continue to do better and be able to pay everyone more. So - nope.

Its not so bad if you are in that 10% - but then I've worked hard for it and do not think its something to be ashamed of.

No argument from me that Labour in the UK has made a right muck of things (and probably richly deserve the out-kicking that they will likely get come May), but that whooshing sound you hear is my point passing you at altitude.

Capitalism as she is practised today (so, not some ideal, ultimate laissez-faire version) tends to increase inequity in society. This is backed up by pretty solid data, as is the fact that greater inequity leads to poorer social outcomes (higher crime, etc). You may have seen the Dom cartoon the other day:



Quite nicely put, I thought.

In short, the rising tide does not lift all boats, and certainly not equally. The western dream is unsustainable, and definitely can't be scaled across geography and time. The claim that more market liberalisation will address this (that we need less regulation) remains to be proven, and indications are that it's a load of unmitigated bullcrap.

My view is that we've evolved a social and economic system that selects for sociopaths, and it will keep on entrenching the status quo until there is an external dislocation (environmental/resource), or a violent revolution (less likely because of dietary, entertainment, and disempowerment factors).

So - are you saying that they should be paid the same - or close to it?

If so - How do you make that work?

Cuba has a society that works fairly closely to this approach, and they have very good social outcomes (health, etc). Some rather obvious downsides to their approach, of course.

[mashman]

I dont know what you do for a living? But do you beleive that you are worth any more than someone who has been doing your job for a week?

15 years doing everything from pre-sales to the full SDLC (I'm generally a one man shop, I DETEST the corporate environment)... Before that (but not in any real order), bouncer, fisherman, laborer, shop assistant, dish washer, shelf stacker and likely many more including a brief stint in Kosovo for an aid organisation...

For a week, ha ha ha... but yes. Why not? The person could have been a CEO at Telecom or could have been a rocket scientist, could have been on the dole and read a book... but just because someone has less experience than me, in my field) does not preclude the fact that they could be "better" than me in any given area of my job... we all have something to offer...

Call bullshit all ya like... come and talk to the guys on the helpdesk here... we have this discussion every now and then... according the the helpdesk manager (earns just over half of what I do) and my boss (not much more than me than you would have thought), i'm worth every penny... Whereas, I realise that I do a job and that that job affects others... if one of us stops, then in all likelyhood, I have to stop doing what I'm doing... the knock on affects of that could have far reaching consequences for the "aged" we provide services for... that's all theory, but more than likely a true representative of what will happen and i'm not prepared to teswt that theory.

[mashman]

ahhh - so where does the government get the tax to build roads and hospitals?

you don't need money. You have engineers and teams of builders that do these things as their job, who knows, maybe they can rotate shifts with bin men for variation.

How does the country survive when we need to get anything from overseas - like drugs, medical equipment; books for schools?

Sadly we need money for this.

You only need money if your imports - exports don't balance and you can't generate what you need locally.

Any why we are at it - If all jobs are being paid the same - who is going to to do the hard, hard physical work when rubbing suntan into hot chicks at the beach pays the same?

There is no pay. No financial system remember. Ahhhh, that job is mine... but in the interest of being fair, there will be a rota.......... some people

[Tank]

You only need money if your imports - exports don't balance and you can't generate what you need locally.

yes - but NZ cannot survive self sufficient - there is a whole world of things out there that people need - that are not made nor could be made in NZ.

Medicines, equipment etc - or do you expect us to go back to the dark ages?

Even the steel for the bridges for the roads has to come from someplace. Make it in NZ you say? Where do we get the equipment from to do so?

Your argument is so flawed its ridiculous - It worries me that people like you are allowed to vote.