My first poll for the NZ public

[mashman]

Where does a steady-state (no growth) economy fit in your list of options?

And unfortunately I missed the most important one: Do you think it warrants further discussion at a government level. That would have been "better" than yes. Bugga eh! but ahhhhindsight, what a wonderful tool to be able to use as an apology for when you've fucked it up. The great ideas that must have been forgotten to placate the people.

[JATZ]

O.K. ya got me......How does this work ?
Does it mean I don't have to go to work anymore 'cause the boss won't pay me,
sweet, I'll go for a ride instead,
hmmm better get some gas.
Ahhh no money, maybe I can barter ?
What goods or services do I have that the servo may wan't ? None
Sorry, I just can't see how this would/could work. If it couldn't work for cavemen (and there was fcuk all of them) hows it gunna work for us ?

[bogan]

Yeh I agree with JATZ, I'm unsure how it would work, do people just give you shit for free? or do you barter? if the first how do you keep peoples greed in check? if the later, how is it different from money?

I would much prefer to live in a society where everyone just worked hard, and received an equal share back, but i think in any society there are too many leeches who would abuse the system.

[mashman]

O.K. ya got me......How does this work ?
Does it mean I don't have to go to work anymore 'cause the boss won't pay me,
sweet, I'll go for a ride instead,
hmmm better get some gas.
Ahhh no money, maybe I can barter ?
What goods or services do I have that the servo may wan't ? None
Sorry, I just can't see how this would/could work. If it couldn't work for cavemen (and there was fcuk all of them) hows it gunna work for us ?

There are no simple answers. You will still have to work, until such time as "some form of government" finds that your job is financially related, and then you can go surf, fuck about, help out a mate etc... as long as you do it with "other people in mind". You may also be able to go back to further education, should you decide you wanna be a Doctor, Nurse, Fireman, Policeman etc... learn whatever the fuck you want. It won't cost you anything because there's no money. Call it a social responsibility if you like, but that's your label. I've never liked the phrase as most of us are quite anti-social by nature.

HOWEVER (oh here we go dear, the problems)

The world might not trade anything with us. Which I can't see being a problem, as the only way we'd be allowed to do it anyway is if we all wanted it, the government approved it, then whoever the government reports to approves it and whoever else there may be etc... now with all of the hoops we'd have to jump through to get there, do you really think they'd say, but oh, we're not going to trade with you and we wouldn't instantly walk away? Kinda goes against the whole point really?

I know it's not simple. But if it warrants merit, and there are those out there who feel it can be done, why not discuss it with the government, because the people just aren't interested and the government speaks for the people, so why not bypass the people. I just happen to have thought about it a lot more than most it seems, but indeed a lot less than others.

Does that answer your questions?

[mashman]

Yeh I agree with JATZ, I'm unsure how it would work, do people just give you shit for free? or do you barter? if the first how do you keep peoples greed in check? if the later, how is it different from money?

I would much prefer to live in a society where everyone just worked hard, and received an equal share back, but i think in any society there are too many leeches who would abuse the system.

following on from my last post... If everyone decides to just take what they want in the first smash and grab, then it's an epic fail for all who have approved it. but if you need a shirt that badly, then I suggest that you just go and get one. Hopefully there will be a shop assistant there that will stop talking to her mates anyway and answer a question for you. Once you've found what you want, put the shit back that you don't want where you got it from and walk out of the door now safe in the knowledge that you have your shirt. Some people will still be desiging and making fashion items.

If we were allowed to do this. The people left in NZ, wouldn't be quibbling over such things. They'd just accept them, it would be a common place attitude. As funny as it sounds, NZ could end up being International Rescue in times of global crisis (lots of doctors, nurses, firemen, police, rescue personel etc...) or even our local one

[bogan]

social responsibility

Find me a country with that, and chances are people there will have all they need anyway. Don't get me wrong, I wish it were possible, perhaps with some sort of social responsibility eviction clause it'd work.

[Big Dave]

Have you read Arthur C (let's hope he didn't do it) Clarke's 'The City And The Stars'?

Diaspar is your kinda place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_City_and_the_Stars

[puddytat]

The green dollar exchange is a good system.
You couldve Mashie, asked wether folk would be pepared to give up a significant part of thier wealth to help the planet..... probably be about 90% of the population would answer catergorically NO.
Funny that .
Also funny is that the people who'd stand to lose the most, are the 10% who control about 90% of the worlds finances.....so Id say yes to your pole as I live only slightly above the official poverty line & I have more freedom & funnily enough more disposible income than most......
SO ....id propse that people were tax free up tp say 200 thou a year then tax the fuckers at 80%.
So for most of us there'd be bugger all differance. Weve also got to stop borrowing money to keep us a float.A large part of the cost is currency exchange costs...We should be using our own Retirement fund to bankroll our sustainable development.
If they dont like it then they can fuck off to some polluted shithole or Banana republic & see really how the rest of the world lives. I work with tourists & they're constantly saying how clear the sky is.You wanna live hear? Then you fucking pay!! for the privilige.
Beware my friends the 'Money Men" are coming & are divvying up our resources & chipping away at our rights. When the shit really hits the fan they'll declare martial law & all our & rights & liberties are gone just like that.
TOOL does a great version of Imagine by JLennon which is a mantra for good morals. They also do a great song called Aenima which sums up exactly what we're heading for.....

[NighthawkNZ:Me]

Your question seems very confused, to me. Are you trying to ask if we can live in a society without the overhead that the financial services sector imposes on the productive sector? That would still need money, or barter, or some means of exchange, which you seem to rule out as well. If you're talking about an economy based purely on goodwill and mutual giving (not exchange) that can work, only up to the Dunbar number. Beyond that, you need some mutually accepted exchange medium (shells, gold, slaves, faith in the US... whatever).

The resource base system has no money, it is based on this is the resources the Earth has available at this time, this is what people require, we share evenly, very simple example, so you need a new pair of shoes, you take your old pair back to be recycled and are given a new pair.

Most likely we will still go to work but not the same way we do now, many of the jobs we have now will be obsolete with no money you don't need an accountant, real estate agents as such, you won't get paid for it in money, this more like your payment to the community which in return you get every thing given to you.

You would be free to study what ever you want, physics, quantum physics, computers, hell dive into regilion , travel, invent do things that you have always wanted to do... be free with out the worry and or curse of money and saving for that new car...

People say we won't advance due to lack of competition and drive to succeed,... well that is bullocks... at present due the money or lack of there is less testing done on new products, if you are in the development industry you just do it and develop you don't have to worry how much it cost because it costs nothing... there is no development cost just time... and now time is not money. You can never go over your budget, no worry of keeping under budget no worry of inflation and resale value...

It would eliminate a lot of crime...(no not all but a lot) pretty hard to steel something that you are just given anyway... (reminds me of an eposide of Sponge Bob yes the cartoon... He thought he stole a balloon... but in the end it was free balloon day ... so he didn't really steel it...

So all of a sudden our police force is cut in half if not smaller as they would be supplus to requirement.

Advertising would change as companies are no longer what we know them as today that control you to being a modern slave to the system (even though many don't even see that), they are now there to actually help you.

Since we are now all on talking terms and sharing each others resources around the world and every one gets there share evenly, miltary involvement is not required, in fact armed forces would no longer be needed. (but during the intial change over there will be hic-ups and issues that need sorting.

Over all the idea is you don't really own anything nobody does, it belongs to the planet it and simply belongs to every one. You are only looking after it while you have it.

The idea also is that technology is being used computers that control the delivery of resources.
As Jacque Fresco says it won't be perfect but t will be better than what we have now...

I can see it actually happening but in my life time I do not know... people are slowly waking up to the lie they have been living in a matrix of lies... :/ The problem is that those in power the few of the that are truly in power are not going to let go, and the will do everything in there power to tighten their grip. Which could mean a war, or a complete collapse of the fiscal monitory system before it happens, but you have to becareful what is offered and what people choose... as the same people that were in power cause all the problems can easily offer and idea (as many prophicies say) that is just as bad if not worse.


Does NZ have the resouces as a local trial for it... probably

[JATZ]

Mashman: "untill some form of gubmint finds my job "financialy related" and then you can go surf, fuck about, help out a mate etc" I'm just a country boy, what do you mean by that ? My job @ the moment would be quite helpfull to the community, but why would I clear a vets blocked shitter....I don't have any pets. I suppose the vet may have fixed an animal for the guy who made my shoes but thats a pretty big leap of faith.
Actually...... while typing this I was thinking about this hypothesis (fark a big word and I havn't had a drink yet) and it would be great if it did happen, I think I can see how it would work, BUT with all due respect my friend, I think you need to get out more, It's a cold hard world out there and I can't see it happening at all, people have been screwing each other over for thousands of years, it's gunna take longer to un-breed it out of the human race, and besides we only have to hang in here for another 2 years.......2012 remember

Puddytat: It was A Perfect Circle did Imagine

[Robert Taylor]

Some see the idea a pure pie in the sky. But i'm curious. There are 50,000,000 registered people (give or take) around the world that agree that a financial system is not necessary. Sorry if I've left any options out.

What are their names?

[george formby]

Nah, unless everybody on the planet is given a lobotomy at the same time it won't work. Sounds great but overlooks basic human nature. Those who hold the reins now will be replaced by others who are good at the " new system". A lot of what exists now still has to be paid for, like your house or bike. Rectifying that will cause confrontation. If something which is coveted is in short supply, who would dictate how it is allocated? I'm sure you get my drift.
As much as I despair at the world we are making/destroying I'm realistic enough to realise that it is being made in our image for our short term gain.
When the shit hits the fan, those who are left may be in a position to make this ideal happen. Peace has given us art, war has given us technology.
Gotta love wishful thinking & the sharing of positive ideas though.

[rainman]

And unfortunately I missed the most important one: Do you think it warrants further discussion at a government level. That would have been "better" than yes.

S'alright, next time just ask me first...

Seriously though - I think your central idea is crazy idealistic, but yes, the question of growth absolutely needs to be discussed at government (and local) levels, most urgently. Google "Arithmetic, Population and Energy" by Dr Albert Bartlett (1hr video lecture) to see why I think this.

I would much prefer to live in a society where everyone just worked hard, and received an equal share back, but i think in any society there are too many leeches who would abuse the system.

But the problem here is (ignoring the fact that some are lazy buggers and some are workaholics), not everyone has the same capabilities or needs, and not everyone can produce things of equal value. (And, value as measured is relative). Marx had some apposite things to say about this, as I recall.

The resource base system has no money, it is based on this is the resources the Earth has available at this time, this is what people require, we share evenly,...

Heard of the Tragedy of the Commons? Garrett Hardin. Explains a fairly fundamental flaw with the "share evenly" part of that view. Also, look around, we do have finite resources today, and we hardly share them equally.

Since we are now all on talking terms and sharing each others resources around the world and every one gets there share evenly, miltary involvement is not required, in fact armed forces would no longer be needed.

Problem is with real humans involved you would need a military to police equal sharing of resources, or they'd get unequal real quick, humans being rather sucky by nature. Actually this has another problem, it would have to be an ideal non-corruptible robot military, ruled by a benevolent non-sucky dictator. (Fortunately for you I have some free time at the moment, so if you get this off the ground I'd be happy to step up.)

Over all the idea is you don't really own anything nobody does, it belongs to the planet it and simply belongs to every one. You are only looking after it while you have it.

Ah, Buddhism. Now that I get.

The problem is that those in power the few of the that are truly in power are not going to let go, and the will do everything in there power to tighten their grip.

This is the fundamental problem with capitalism as she is practiced. Money grants power, power gives the capability to attract more money, increasing power. Aka the rich get richer, the rest of us get screwed.

[Headbanger]

The world could well still suck... but people have reasoned, and rightly so IMHO, that the world would indeed still suck but to MUCH of a lesser degree.

The world rocks, I live like a King in comparison to every single generation that has preceded me.

[rainman]

As for Dunbar, he's as mad as I am...

Mad? You ain't seen nothing yet.

The world rocks, I live like a King in comparison to every single generation that has preceded me.

In material terms, maybe. But could the whole world live like you do?
And if they could, would you be satisfied to live at your current level of materialism, or would you expect to be proportionally better off?