Personal responsibility goes out the window...

[mashman]

If they're telling lies, why should you trust them or even let them out of the house?

You have to catch them telling lies first... I was really rather good at getting into shitloads of trouble and yet coming up smelling of roses, only to go out and do the same thing the next opportunity I had. A mate of mine was kept under lock and key... we used to pick him up at the end of his driveway after he'd slid out of his bedroom window... my sister did the boarding school thing (a royal boarding school no less) and they were constantly getting shitfaced, amongst other things, but our folks didn't know because she gave them no cause to suspect her... if "kids" don't want parents to know and are smart enough to know what they're doing (yet they still may drink themselves to death), the parents will never know... When i was kicked out of school it came as a complete shock to the family... they didn't suspect a thing because they were at work and I was at the house mid-day partying with some friends, i just had to make sure that the house was tidy and that i was on the school bus in the morning and then in the evening, who would know??? My parents had no reason not to trust me or my sister (not really, i was harmelss to everyone else, if not a little self-destructive (read having waaaaaaaaay too much fun) and my sister was studying hard 200 milesish away)... I abused my parents trust no end... yet they still trusted me (partially because they didn't know)...

To which end I will try to educate my 3 daughters as much as possible and then leave the rest up to them... all they'll need to know is that Dad will always be there for them irrespective of what they've done... I can do no more as they will be their own people some day and will have to make their own Moral choices...

[rainman]

Stop punishing the kids who get it right and don't cause any problems!
Then focus on sorting out the kids that get it wrong! ( I believe that they are the minority)
How's that for starters? (Serious suggestion, not trying to be a smart arse here!)

Hard to imagine you being a smart arse... As to your suggestion: sure thing. How?

Perfectly targeted legislation is impossible.
Education campaigns aren't working.
Only remaining options are a) acceptance, b) regulation, c) taxation.

The kid is responsible for himself....its just another case of Darwinism.

Do you seriously think 16 year olds are fully responsible for themselves, and don't need a little help from time to time to not do brainstoppingly stupid things?

I think pinching the odd bit of booze off the olds is part of growing up.....! Did you have ANY fun as a kid? Or one of those kids that stayed home on friday and saturday nights? (surely)

"I have respect fro the laws of my country...." You are trolling right?!!!! Are you really that much of a wowser?!

Dunno, my nearly 16 year old doesn't drink and doesn't pinch booze off me, and he seems to have a happy and fulfilling social life. It is possible, you know. Maybe this is part of the culture of drinking we have - if you don't steal booze from your parents and get pissed on Fridays and Saturdays you're dissed as a wowser?
(Note I'm not saying my son is perfect and isn't ever going to do silly things - I certainly did, plenty - just that kids seem to be more comfortable being themselves these days).

And personally I'd be glad if more people had a bit of respect for the laws of the country (OK, most of them). Seems to me there's more upside than down to that proposition.

[Tank]

Do you seriously think 16 year olds are fully responsible for themselves, and don't need a little help from time to time to not do brainstoppingly stupid things?

of course they do. Just from their parents, friends etc - not the g'ment which is what this thread started out linking to.

[firefighter]

Dunno, my nearly 16 year old doesn't drink and doesn't pinch booze off me,

Give it a year!

It is possible, you know. Maybe this is part of the culture of drinking we have - if you don't steal booze from your parents and get pissed on Fridays and Saturdays you're dissed as a wowser?
(Note I'm not saying my son is perfect and isn't ever going to do silly things - I certainly did, plenty - just that kids seem to be more comfortable being themselves these days).

I foresaw this as being used against me! Ok to be clear, i'm not talking about stealing the liquor cabinet, i'm talking taking a little bit out of each and making rocket fuel.....hahahaha.... shit I was'nt that bad a kid was I?!! You know, now and then, and topping it up with water......then the old man tasting his watered down booze and kicking your ass....hahaha

It does'nt make you a wowser, but it does make me wonder where the sense of curiosity is in kids that do'nt want to get up to mischief....(ok, this is PC world, I mean mischief, not major crime here!) NO you do'nt have to drink at all. I was actually digging at the absolute cult-like attitude toward the law.

I did'nt go out every saturday, I was'nt allowed to, but I sure tried! Maybe I just had lots of badass friends? I do'nt think so. It was never really a big deal.

I would'nt dwell on the "drinking culture" thing. That term is over-used. It's "cool" to go out and party at that age......which is what it's all about right? Parties, friends, and good times. unless of course you wanna live in a bubble....

Teenagers around the world try to get drunk....it's not some mysterious N.Z problem.

And personally I'd be glad if more people had a bit of respect for the laws of the country (OK, most of them). Seems to me there's more upside than down to that proposition.

Of-course. But to the point where you forget you are a kid and do'nt want to have beer at a party with your mates?!!!! That not obeying the law.....that's cult'ish.

Was I the only person here who had a FUN/adventurous time in his teens and experimented with life?! Man it's the essence of life (Not drinking/trying new things your not allowed to do!)

A teenager drinking is hardly a major crimminal act for gods sake.

[huff3r]

Of-course. But to the point where you forget you are a kid and do'nt want to have beer at a party with your mates?!!!! That not obeying the law.....that's cult'ish.

Was I the only person here who had a FUN/adventurous time in his teens and experimented with life?! Man it's the essence of life (Not drinking/trying new things your not allowed to do!)

A teenager drinking is hardly a major crimminal act for gods sake.

No it's not cultish when you go to a party with your mates and they are all acting their own age, and THERE IS NO BEER! It's entirely possible to have a decent party without alcohol, and kids these days seem to be forgetting that. No I was not a nerd, nor was I socially retarded. My friends had genuine good fun without resorting to alcohol, and now we can choose to have that fun with or without. Whats wrong with experimenting once it's legal to do so?

For me it was a right of passage. I turned 18, and I was then allowed to experiment with alcohol if i chose to (which i did ). It was so much worthwhile after waiting for it and earning it than it could ever have been through deceit.

As for my attitude towards the law... yeah, ive broken some, but i try earnestly not to make a habit of it. I prefer not to get into trouble, regardless of the chance of me being caught. Especially when it comes to things that people see as minor, like theft or wilfull damage. Because thats something that someone has worked hard for, and taking it or breaking it just is not right. Regardless of the value of the item.

I personally think its not a question of needing more laws, but rather the need to instill more of what used to be common values in children of today, as well as to educate them, both on the effects of alcohol, and how they can do without it. The 16-year-olds i know who drink at parties scare me. Hearing stories of them comatose, chucking their guts, and their friends not knowing what to do, wether an ambulance is required etc. I don't want one of them to be next in the headlines!

[SS90]

From what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, but certain European countries (I believe France may be one of them) where children are introduced to alcohol at a younger age in a controled environment have a much lower incidence of 'binge drinking' and other social harms that abuse brings. Maybe by putting it up on the top shelf and keeping it out of their reach, while all the wise adults enjoy themselves by indulging, has the exact opposite effect than what we hoped for.

It's pretty much most of Europe, In Germany the rule was changed a few years back to DISCLUDE spirits) is

From the age of 16, you may consume Beer, and Wine. It is up to the bar owner if they allow 16 year olds on their premises, and, some place do have a 18 (or 21) year old minimum.

European's always say "oh, we have a youth drinking problem", and I always tell them they most certainly do not, compared to the UK or NZ, it is like a Sunday school (in this regard)

If (for example) a group of 16 year old are going to a football game outside of the town (by train), and, they want to drink booze, by in large, if the train is quite full, they will all stand in an area between the carrige, yes, they have music playing, and yes, they are drinking (legally, you are allowed to bring booze on board and consume it), but, even though this is going on, they (to a degree) responsible about it, and, show a level of respect.

On the other hand, I was back in NZ in December, and I was totally embarrassed by the youth drinking culture, Friday and Saturday nights saw streets full off pissed kids, foul mouthed, walking in front of cars (they even tried to stem this with a total ban on alcohol consumption outside the bars), but I don't see it as having done a thing.

When I was at high school, 6 kids I knew (from 2 different schools) died from alcohol related deaths (2 from drink driving, and, 2 from poisoning, 1 from suicide (a direct result of alcohol consumption is this scenario) and the other from having a head on into a bridge at night (on his sweat wheel), and died a few days later in hospital.

All in 5 years.

I went to a good school too.

I witnessed this getting worse when they lowered the drinking age, and I don't see the chances of them putting it back up (too much money from tax)

I know bar owners who (claim) their high prices are (partially) there to discourage "younger" drinkers from coming in (cough cough), but the real answer is "raise it to 20", it is a simple fix.

[DMNTD:Me]

Sad news indeed...as a parent I can only imagine what the folks are going through.
I did similar things (obviously with different results) at that kid's age...plus a LOT more.
I went to a very similar school, had fantastic parents that did teach me right from wrong yet I still did the "bad" things. If I had died from alcohol poisoning it would have been no one's fault but my own.
Right or wrong, some of us are simply wired that way.

[Grubber]

You know, I think the smartest way of dealing with the issue of stupid people killing themselves because they are well.....stupid, is to either let them do it, or educate them that sculling a bottle of vodka will kill you.

You ca'nt tell kids that "drinking is bad. m,kay." Actually showing evidence of adults who have killed themselves from drinking in excess is about all that can be done. The rest is up to the individual.

I truely beleive that, other that making alcohol illegal, this is the only real solution.

You ca'nt make a horse drink the water.

I kinda agree with you here.
I think you have to do as much and maybe more than possible to educate them to drink in moderation or not at all. I don't mean a 2 sentence solution either. I mean constant parenting through the younger parts of their lives.
Then it's kinda up to the kids to have listened and learned.
I always told my kids that they can drink in moderation and if they found themselves having done more than that they were to 'phone home ET' and i would come pick them up, no matter what time of the night.
I had done as much as i could i thought. Never got rung and never had any issues. All happy.

[sinfull]

We have been lucky, it worked for us.

Uhuh !

Sad news indeed...as a parent I can only imagine what the folks are going through.
I did similar things (obviously with different results) at that kid's age...plus a LOT more.
I went to a very similar school, had fantastic parents that did teach me right from wrong yet I still did the "bad" things. If I had died from alcohol poisoning it would have been no one's fault but my own.
Right or wrong, some of us are simply wired that way.

This has to be the nail on the head post !

I didn't go to one of those schools but i was a good kid, my parents had to be the best of the bunch, i pinched booze out of the old mans cabinet and made a rocket fuel occasionally, lay under his beer keg in the garage and guzzled a belly full on my way to scouts a few times ! He never knew !

But I was also working all school holidays and after school at 14, in an apprentiship at 15, my own flat at 16, I WAS responsible for my own actions !
What is it with todays society putting an apron string harness around kids necks till they're 20 ?
The last sentence in DMNTDs post sums it up, there were teens dying from alcohol poisoning in my day too ! It's gonna happen, no matter what friggin laws the pathetic do gooders try to implement !

[doc]

I think its the ole "You reap what you sow" All the years of becoming a more liberal society, with each Govts version of social engineering. I think its a case of get use to it folks its here to stay.
Infact I think things may even become worse.

[davereid]

As sad as it is for the family, people choose to use recreational drugs, and their son was no exception.

Partly, this tragedy was caused by restrictions on alcohol.

During prohibition, alcohol was illegal. So those who made and used alcohol made moonshine - the most potent form of the drug they could make. Same applies here. Gonna steal something from Nana ? Best bang for buck is a bottle of vodka.

If this young man had been able to buy beer from a vending machine, he would have drunk 12 cans, been sick, and gone home with some great pictures of him lying in his own vomit digitally winging their way to facebook.

We will continue to restrict alcohol for young people, until we notice that they have cheap, easy access to other drugs, and all we have done is influence their drug of choice.

[Pixie]

The problem is that in order to properly "educate" your child you need to get them shitfaced. That means that the parent has to break the law... LMAO @ personal responsibility in 15 - 16 yr olds...

Only if they are in a country will an Anglo Saxon heritage.
It is only in England,Australia,North America and South Africa that drinking to the point of coma is seen as a good,fun,manly thing to do.
The former Eastern Block countries and some Scandinavian countries are an exception that are not A/S but have a bad problem with alcohol.
In Central Europe children see sensible drinking from the first time they sit at the dinner table.They don't need to be made to become "shitfaced" to learn sensible drinking.They learn that drinking to inebriation is something to be ashamed of.
I use to have watered red wine with a meal when I was 8 years old.
I think it has something to do with how protestantism in A/S countries has caused the population to inherently feel guilty when they indulge in pleasurable activities.

[mashman]

Only if they are in a country will an Anglo Saxon heritage.
It is only in England,Australia,North America and South Africa that drinking to the point of coma is seen as a good,fun,manly thing to do.
The former Eastern Block countries and some Scandinavian countries are an exception that are not A/S but have a bad problem with alcohol.
In Central Europe children see sensible drinking from the first time they sit at the dinner table.They don't need to be made to become "shitfaced" to learn sensible drinking.They learn that drinking to inebriation is something to be ashamed of.
I use to have watered red wine with a meal when I was 8 years old.
I think it has something to do with how protestantism in A/S countries has caused the population to inherently feel guilty when they indulge in pleasurable activities.

Scotland? you could well be right in regardsw to the cultural aspect... but within that "culture" if they're going to drink to excess, you need to educate the children where that limit is? if booze is there, there will be those that use it, those that abuse it and those that depend on it...

My solution is the usual, out of my mind thing, and will be wholly unacceptable to mainstream society or KB as i've come to view it, so... We need to have "real world" classes at school (sometime this may well have to be a day thing )... perhaps aged 12-13, dunno about the age group... where kids take "social drugs" (booze, cannabis, eberneeza, billy etc... THE KIDS CAN SAY NO) to experience their effects in a safe environment and see for themselves the effects it has on their class mates... after all they are their peers... wholly unacceptable, but i'd rather the safe education than the potential alternatives!!!

[kit]

Kids (especially Teenagers) do stupid things, make stupid choices, and hopefully learn from the consequences... You can be the best parent in the world, installed good morals etc, and they still go and experiment with things without thought to consequences. This is not going to change. My father told me If I got up to half of the trouble that he did my ass was toast! Now my daughter is a teenager, and I have done my best to instill common sense, morals, confidence etc into her, but she is going to push her limits and exceed the boundaries that I have in place. There is an attitude out there with children today that they think they can do what they like, and there is nothing you can do about it. All the privileges they have, are not privleges in there eyes but rights that they think they are entitled to.

It is extremely sad that this young boy lost his life, experimenting with alcohol. But you cannot supervise your teenager every minute of the day, You have to trust them, as they grow as individuals and hope they make the correct choices at those crucial times, and if they don't, then they know that they can ring you not matter what, and hope that their friends have enough commonsence that they would ring an ambulance etc if they were worried about their friends.

[Bald Eagle]

On a slight tangent to this is the whole hypocritical policy makers attitudes to alcohol versus smoking. Both huge money spinners for the central purse. No body ever went out at night and smoked themselves dead.