Countersteering vs body leaning?

[R-Soul]

Bloody interesting video - I guess I use counter steering then lol Cheers for that was not even aware.

Yes check this out too.
http://www.superbikeschool.com/machi...bs-machine.php

If you dont do countersteering, you can treally steer.

Sometimes in shifting your weight, you unknowingly push forward on an inside bar (for eg if drppping an inside shoulder into acorner) which causes counter steering (even though you may think its weight change causing the steering- it isn't).

Its better to know what is actually causing teh steering - so that you dont (unsuccessfully) try and do stuff with shfiting weight/leanining etc in an emergency situation.

Also let be clear on this- its NOT pushing up or down (relative the ground) its pushing forward/backwards. Nothing else.

The final steering/leaning effect is mainly because of a combination of two other effects
1) Gyroscopic precession (when moving a gyroscope in one direction - forward/backwards- you get a reaction force acting in a direction 90 degrees to the exerted force - left/ right - which pushes the bike over). Gyroscopic precession gives you about 30% or less of the leaning effect.
3) Movement of bike out from underneath rider. Looking from the front, when the rider is staying still, and the bike wheel contact patch moves out left, the bike will start falling over to the right (and vice versa) under teh weight fo eth bike and rider. The bike can be looked at as an inverted pendulum. When it starts falling, it will keep falling unless balanced by cornering forces, or by a change in counter steering again to right it. thsi effect accounts for most of teh leaning effect.

Weight shift probably has about 2-5% effect in comparision. Not much steering effect there at all.

The faster the bike is going, the more gyroscopic stability it will have from its own rotating wheels, and the more conrnering forces it will be subject to, making it more difficult to lean in (and sometimes necessitating a real hard push/pull).

[AllanB]

Some people over-think this shit way too much!!!!!!


Whatever style you use, ensure to allow for the unbalanced weight of your penis if you dress left or right (not necessary if you have a freaky snake-tongue dick, just flop one each side for perfect balance).

[R-Soul]

Also- the footpeg weighting thing:

Footpeg weighting does NOT steer teh bike.

What it does is make the bike feel (at least subjectively) more settled in a corner. If you look at a bike from the front, the pivot point is teh contact patch with the ground. The further away the rider is firmly connected to the bike from the pivot point - such as at the saddle- the more unbalanced the rider will be on the bike.

This is because small movements of the rider will create reation forces on the bike at a longer distance from the pivot point (and hence use a longer lever arm to move the bike about its pivot point). If the biker is firmly connected to the bike at a lower place -such as the footpegs-, then movements by the rider are transferred as reaction forces to the bike via the footpegs (thereby usinga shorter lever arm), and unsettling the bike less.

[R-Soul]

Well my understanding (don't know if it carries the same weight as yours as I didn't underline it) is that 'countersteering' is the process the front wheel goes through to acheive a turn, the front wheel actually countersteers the bike through the turn, not the handlebars. The handlebars are just one method of initiating countersteer.

No the handlebars are the only (effective) method of initiating countersteer.
See the No BS bike link above.

[R-Soul]

If you sit off the side of the bike, why do you need opposite bar pressure from preventing it initiating a turn?

(try it - ride along a straight road, sit well to one side, let the bike stabilise, and release the bars.)

Steve

Look at a bike at rest. With you sitting on it. Assume you and teh bike are perfectly balanced so that ist stand up. this is how teh bike is travelling in a straght line - at rest.

Now if you move your bodyweight to one side, the bike acts like an inverted pendulum,and will fall that side. Caused by your unbalabced bodyweight. But the actual size of the unbalanced force is very little (at least at at first - once the bike is over a lot, then there is a lot of force pushing the bike over - same as counter steering). So little initial leaning force is generated that it is not NEARLY enough to actually lean a moving bike quickly and effectively (since a moving bike is also subject to a stabilising gyroscopic force from the rotating wheels).

Which is counter steering by pushing/pulling on the bars is much more effective. It moves the bike out from under a rider, and gives a strong leaning force quickly by moving the bike and rider into a position so that their own weight can act effectively to lean the bike.

When you set up your body weight for a corner, this does start initiating the turn (too slowly to actually accomplish any turn but the widest ones) and may cause your line to be inciorrect because of teh early turn. So you counter steer to keep tehe bike on line untioil you have reached your proper turn in point, and then use counter steering on the bars to do it quickly.

[bogan]

Also- the footpeg weighting thing:

Footpeg weighting does NOT steer teh bike.

What it does is make the bike feel (at least subjectively) more settled in a corner. If you look at a bike from the front, the pivot point is teh contact patch with the ground. The further away the rider is firmly connected to the bike from the pivot point - such as at the saddle- the more unbalanced the rider will be on the bike.

This is because small movements of the rider will create reation forces on the bike at a longer distance from the pivot point (and hence use a longer lever arm to move the bike about its pivot point). If the biker is firmly connected to the bike at a lower place -such as the footpegs-, then movements by the rider are transferred as reaction forces to the bike via the footpegs (thereby usinga shorter lever arm), and unsettling the bike less.

yes it does, the no BS bike only proves the direct relation between countersteering and corner entry. Weighting a footpeg does effictively steer the bike, as does leaning and bum steering, most who try these techniques will tell you this. The conclusion I draw from that is they are all techniques which indirectly (and unconciously) result in countersteering; so while the bar push method is the most direct, who's to say its the best?

[R-Soul]

yes it does, the no BS bike only proves the direct relation between countersteering and corner entry. Weighting a footpeg does effictively steer the bike, as does leaning and bum steering, most who try these techniques will tell you this. The conclusion I draw from that is they are all techniques which indirectly (and unconciously) result in countersteering; so while the bar push method is the most direct, who's to say its the best?

No it does not - shimmying the bike's headstock around to incrementally change the steering geometry does NO EFFECTIVE STEERING.

From your comments I see you are defining countersteering as the movement of the front wheel outwards to create bike lean in. This is not what I define as counter steering, which is actual pushing/pulling on the bars (consciously or not) .

But you can test your claim. I have already.
Take your hands off the bars on an empty road, hold the tank instead, and weight the pegs the way you claim to do to initate front wheel movement outwards. You will get effectively no steering.

If you are defining countersteering as "pushing on bars to turn", then your argument is silly. I can claim that sittting side saddle and kicking the bars with my feet is the best way of initiating countersteering (as long as there is actually a push/pull on the bars at the end). But at the end of the day it is better to know how to do it the most direct way, or else you are just wasting energy.

[MSTRS:Me]

... so while the bar push method is the most direct, who's to say its the best?

Do you know something that MILLIONS of 2 wheeled riders have never discovered in over 100 years?

[bogan]

If you are defining countersteering as "pushing on bars to turn", then your argument is silly. I can claim that sittting side saddle and kicking the bars with my feet is the best way of initiating countersteering (as long as there is actually a push/pull on the bars at the end). But at the end of the day it is better to know how to do it the most direct way, or else you are just wasting energy.

I'm defining it as steering in the opposite direction (even just a little bit) to initiate a turn, so the later point I will address. And no, the most direct method is not always the best, ABS brakes is the perfect case, if you are good enough you can stop quicker without them (though only just compared to the new ones), but the majority of us could not. The same can be said for countersteering, by all means try all techniques, but at the end of the day the one you are most comfortable using will save you arse in an emergency situation.

Do you know something that MILLIONS of 2 wheeled riders have never discovered in over 100 years?

see above sentence

[R-Soul]

I'm defining it as steering in the opposite direction (even just a little bit) to initiate a turn, so the later point I will address. And no, the most direct method is not always the best, ABS brakes is the perfect case, if you are good enough you can stop quicker without them (though only just compared to the new ones), but the majority of us could not. The same can be said for countersteering, by all means try all techniques, but at the end of the day the one you are most comfortable using will save you arse in an emergency situation.

What a load of tripe! You think about that the next time you have overcooked a corner, and are crossing the white line with oncoming cars ahead, cats eyes are hindering your abilityt transfer weight to your pegs, and for some reason you can't get IMMEDIATE steering from weighting your pegs. When all you have to do is push on th bar. Yeah, it may be reeeal comfortable for all of the one second that you have left on the planet....

Logically, the technique that operates the most directly and gives you the quickest response is the one you should be using always, and making it into a good habit.

Are you actually arguing that you should use a less direct, more vague way to control your bike because it "feels more comfortable"? From your previous posts re technical things, I thought you had a good sense of logic.

By all means accompany effective counter steering with whatever associated body movements you want if it makes you feel comfortable, and teh bike more settled, but just KNOW where the real steering control is coming from and be able to rely on that knowledge in emergencies.

[R-Soul]

I'm defining it as steering in the opposite direction (even just a little bit) to initiate a turn, so the later point I will address. And no, the most direct method is not always the best, ABS brakes is the perfect case, if you are good enough you can stop quicker without them (though only just compared to the new ones), but the majority of us could not. The same can be said for countersteering, by all means try all techniques, but at the end of the day the one you are most comfortable using will save you arse in an emergency situation.

see above sentence

And your ABS example is not relevant - it doesn't even fit the analogy.

[Crisis management]

Thank you Urano and Dave Bullet for actually reading and comprehending what it was I was asking.

Everyone else - EPIC FAIL.

Having said that, I expected a 90/10 bullshit sense ratio from KB

You certainly need a sense of humour for here...

However, although Urano is 90% correct (IMHO) Dave is unfortunately incorrect regarding footpeg weighting (inside peg), like most of us we all do some of the stuff right but I wouldn't accept anyones word as absolutely correct, read everything and glean the bits that make sense to you from it, try it out and learn as you go.

Or go to the Superbike school.

[bogan]

What a load of tripe! You think about that the next time you have overcooked a corner, and are crossing the white line with oncoming cars ahead, cats eyes are hindering your abilityt transfer weight to your pegs, and for some reason you can't get IMMEDIATE steering from weighting your pegs. When all you have to do is push on th bar. Yeah, it may be reeeal comfortable for all of the one second that you have left on the planet....

Logically, the technique that operates the most directly and gives you the quickest response is the one you should be using always, and making it into a good habit.

Are you actually arguing that you should use a less direct, more vague way to control your bike because it "feels more comfortable"? From your previous posts re technical things, I thought you had a good sense of logic.

By all means accompany effective counter steering with whatever associated body movements you want if it makes you feel comfortable, and teh bike more settled, but just KNOW where the real steering control is coming from and be able to rely on that knowledge in emergencies.

The point I was making is in that last second, you don't want to be thinking about all the physics etc, you want to just do it, if weighting the pegs (or any other method) does the bar push subconsiously, what is the difference? And I didn't mean do what makes you feel confortable, but the one that you are most comfortable using, ie what comes naturally.

And your ABS example is not relevant - it doesn't even fit the analogy.

how so? I thought it fit very well

[MSTRS:Me]

The point I was making is in that last second, you don't want to be thinking about all the physics etc, you want to just do it, if weighting the pegs (or any other method) does the bar push subconsiously, what is the difference? And I didn't mean do what makes you feel confortable, but the one that you are most comfortable using, ie what comes naturally.

As long as we know that the PRIMARY reason for crisp, immediate, controlled turning comes from that push (or pull) on the bars and have practised it to the point where thinking about it is not required...

[StoneY]

Bloody interesting video - I guess I use counter steering then lol Cheers for that was not even aware.

As are many others mate
Fact is leaning causes you to put pressure on the 'inside' bar eg the one on the side your turning toward, and that means your pushing that bar out...eg countersteering
Had this discsuiion with a mate, and when he actively counterseered he realised how much more positive control and reaction time he gained