Countersteering vs body leaning?

[R-Soul]

The point I was making is in that last second, you don't want to be thinking about all the physics etc, you want to just do it, if weighting the pegs (or any other method) does the bar push subconsiously, what is the difference? And I didn't mean do what makes you feel confortable, but the one that you are most comfortable using, ie what comes naturally.

Keep in mind that other relative newbies might be reading this and trying to make sense of counter steering from it. I agree that youu should use what comes naturally, since you will probably revert to it in panic situations. But then why not ingrain the most direct method to be the one that comes naturally? By using it all the time?

how so? I thought it fit very well

Well we are comparing techniques, while your ABS example is a comparison of hardware. We are talking about learning and unlearning and relearning thee most effective technique for riding a bike, not which system is teh most effective. for both suystems, the optimum technique is progressively grabbing a fistful of brake, and modulating it until it is just at that point before the tyre breaks traction. Its just on an ABS bike, if you DO break traction, the system kicks in and modulates the brakes automatically. If you are not, you have to release the brake and reapply again. Your good technique on an non-ABS system would still be good technique on an ABS system. The ABS system just helps you if you dont have good technique.

[MSTRS:Me]

Here's a little exercise....
On a deserted road, using the dotted lanes marking, at a speed of (say) 30kph, weave in and out of the lines, using your normal steering style. Then do it again at 40kph. Then 50kph. Then 60kph. And so on.
The faster you travel at, the greater the effort needed to flick the bike in and out. If anyone can do that without pushing, and/or pulling, on the bars, then that person is a riding god...

[varminter]

Now, if we can just get a bit about waving in here as well we should have the ultimate contentious thread.

[R-Soul]

The point I was making is in that last second, you don't want to be thinking about all the physics etc, you want to just do it, if weighting the pegs (or any other method) does the bar push subconsiously, what is the difference? And I didn't mean do what makes you feel confortable, but the one that you are most comfortable using, ie what comes naturally.

What if your particular sub method focussed on pushing down on pegs. And if you try to push too hard down on pegs instead of focussing on bars, you actually start pulling on bars to get more leverage for yorur misguided attempst at pushing down on pegs?
So in an emergency situation, at the time you need to be pushing hardest on bars, you are actually focussed on something else completely, which may or may not have the result of doing anything to the bars.

Some riders feel that it comes more naturally to wrestle with the bars, in effect pushing /pulling upwards/downwards instead of forwards/ backwards. One result of their efforts at wrestling is that a small component of their effort up and down causes the slight backwards/forwards movement required for countersteering, but because they are wasting so much energy pushing up/down on immovable bars, they can never get really quick effective steering because it would take too much effort from them.

Yes it may be natural, and even comfortable, but its rubbish!

[bogan]

As long as we know that the PRIMARY reason for crisp, immediate, controlled turning comes from that push (or pull) on the bars and have practised it to the point where thinking about it is not required...

Keep in mind that other relative newbies might be reading this and trying to make sense of counter steering from it. I agree that youu should use what comes naturally, since you will probably revert to it in panic situations. But then why not ingrain the most direct method to be the one that comes naturally? By using it all the time?

OK then counter-steering is the best technique if done well, but you still gotta practice it to make it your best technique.

Well we are comparing techniques, while your ABS example is a comparison of hardware. We are talking about learning and unlearning and relearning thee most effective technique for riding a bike, not which system is teh most effective. for both suystems, the optimum technique is progressively grabbing a fistful of brake, and modulating it until it is just at that point before the tyre breaks traction. Its just on an ABS bike, if you DO break traction, the system kicks in and modulates the brakes automatically. If you are not, you have to release the brake and reapply again. Your good technique on an non-ABS system would still be good technique on an ABS system. The ABS system just helps you if you dont have good technique.

Systems, techniques, in both cases its sometimes easier to go with the easier less thinking approach rather than becoming good enough at that skill to make it worth using, thats why I offered that example.

What if your particular sub method focussed on pushing down on pegs. And if you try to push too hard down on pegs instead of focussing on bars, you actually start pulling on bars to get more leverage for yorur misguided attempst at pushing down on pegs?
So in an emergency situation, at the time you need to be pushing hardest on bars, you are actually focussed on something else completely, which may or may not have the result of doing anything to the bars.

Some riders feel that it comes more naturally to wrestle with the bars, in effect pushing /pulling upwards/downwards instead of forwards/ backwards. One result of their efforts at wrestling is that a small component of their effort up and down causes the slight backwards/forwards movement required for countersteering, but because they are wasting so much energy pushing up/down on immovable bars, they can never get really quick effective steering because it would take too much effort from them.

Well one assumes the rider is not a complete idiot, and if it comes naturally, you are not focusing on it!

Yes it may be natural, and even comfortable, but its rubbish!

Rubbish is somewhat of a strong term, if 'rubbish' gets you round corners easily I got no problem with it!

[MSTRS:Me]

OK then counter-steering is the best technique if done well, but you still gotta practice it to make it your best technique.

Countersteering is the ONLY way you are going to start cornering. And indeed, straightening up afterwards.
How you achieve it is somewhat up to the individual, but at the end of the day, there is no more effective way than the push/pull on the bars. All other inputs may be of assistance, but in and of themselves, are not very effective.

[R-Soul]

OK then counter-steering is the best technique if done well, but you still gotta practice it to make it your best technique.

Thats my point exactly - but at least establish what is the best technique first and then ride it every day. Dont just settle on a poor technque because it "does the job". Because when the shit hits the fan, you want the best technique you can muster. And you want it to be second nature.

Systems, techniques, in both cases its sometimes easier to go with the easier less thinking approach rather than becoming good enough at that skill to make it worth using, thats why I offered that example.

In normal, carefree riding it may just do. Nobody is forcing you develop good technique. And when your technique is not good enough to pull you through, you have nobody to blame but yourself. But dont go around advising others that bad technique is "good enough" because it uses "less thinking".

The OP didn't ask what technique was good enough for functional riding, but will ultimately let him down. Nobody comesonto these forums asking for the second best techniques that will waste a lot of energy doing nothing, but will eventually get the job done if you do it hard enough.

Well one assumes the rider is not a complete idiot, and if it comes naturally, you are not focusing on it!

I meant that in a bad situation you may be doing what comes naturally, but because what you are doing (at its extremes) has little effect on what really makes the difference, it remains inneffective- regardless of whether you are focussing on it or not. You can do you natural thing as hard as you want, but its still doesn't do what you need it to do, better. Did that line make sense?

Rubbish is somewhat of a strong term, if 'rubbish' gets you round corners easily I got no problem with it!

OK change it to "relatively inefficient and potentially lethal"

[bogan]

Countersteering is the ONLY way you are going to start cornering. And indeed, straightening up afterwards.
How you achieve it is somewhat up to the individual, but at the end of the day, there is no more effective way than the push/pull on the bars. All other inputs may be of assistance, but in and of themselves, are not very effective.

countersteering the physics thing is the only way you are going to start cornering, but technique-wise its not, It is hard to distinguish between the two on forums. And straighting up can be done by adding plenty of speed too!

Thats my point exactly - but at least establish what is the best technique first and then ride it every day. Dont just settle on a poor technque because it "does the job". Because when the shit hits the fan, you want the best technique you can muster. And you want it to be second nature.

In normal, carefree riding it may just do. Nobody is forcing you develop good technique. And when your technique is not good enough to pull you through, you have nobody to blame but yourself. But dont go around advising others that bad technique is "good enough" because it uses "less thinking".

I haven't said use bad techniques cos they use less thinking, I have said try them all and do whatever you think is best.

The OP didn't asked what was technique was good enough for functional riding, but will ultimately let you down. Nobody comesonto these forums asking for the second best techniques.

Well if we go back to the OP the safest answer is obviously both.

I meant that in a bad situation you may be doing what comes naturally, but because what you are doing (at its extremes) has little effect on what really makes the difference, it remains inneffective- regardless of whether you are focussing on it or not. You can do you natural thing as hard as you want, but its still doesn't do what you need it to do, better. Did that line make sense?

yup, we're basically just repeating ourselves now, you guys saying countersteering (the technique) offers better performance if done right, me saying it aint the only way to do it, and I have agreed it is the best if done properly.

[CookMySock]

I violently dump all my weight on the left foot peg
This pushes the bike left of centre - pivoting the bars toward the right around the steering head
The bike therefore is countersteering without my direct bar input..

Of course, we naturally want to keep the bike upright, so we apply right hand push force to counter the counter steer and keep the bike straight.

yup. Makes sense.

I think it's important to distinguish between "pushing on the bars to initiate a corner", or "tipping your weight around to initiate a corner." Any two-wheeled contraption momentarily turns the opposite way before committing to a turn, but I use the term "countersteering" to refer to the riders' deliberate action of pushing on the bars.

So all bikes countersteer. They must do.

All riders do not countersteer.


Steve

[schrodingers cat]

Woo Hoo - Cage fight! As Bogan said maybe next time I will be more careful choosing my thread title. My bad for expecting anyone to read the body of text.

I think it is interesting to sit at home and reseach and think about things. However, once I sling my leg over the seat I let my body do what it does. I know that if I attempt to ride the bike using the conscious mind things will go very badly

A nice gentleman (Cheers Longwheelie) has explained and demonstrated to me how the weighting of the pegs can influence the bike in a subtle way. The trick is (and this is what I was missing) is to get your bum slightly off the seat to ensure your mass acts through the footpedal not your ass crack.

Anyway - carry on the bitch fight. I'll get me a beer

[bogan]

Woo Hoo - Cage fight! As Bogan said maybe next time I will be more careful choosing my thread title. My bad for expecting anyone to read the body of text.

I think it is interesting to sit at home and reseach and think about things. However, once I sling my leg over the seat I let my body do what it does. I know that if I attempt to ride the bike using the conscious mind things will go very badly

A nice gentleman (Cheers Longwheelie) has explained and demonstrated to me how the weighting of the pegs can influence the bike in a subtle way. The trick is (and this is what I was missing) is to get your bum slightly off the seat to ensure your mass acts through the footpedal not your ass crack.

Anyway - carry on the bitch fight. I'll get me a beer

haha, this is kb, and that was no bitchfight, only vague (at best) insults were even traded :P

However it did stimulate me to actively practice my countersteering (technique) on the way home, especially with man-hole covers, one thing I find is if I look at the obstacle I am avoiding I bar-pull instead of push, where-as if I think about the line instead, I will bar push. So same hand as side I am thinking of, must be brain sides or something!

[CookMySock]

I think it is interesting to sit at home and reseach and think about things. However, once I sling my leg over the seat I let my body do what it does. I know that if I attempt to ride the bike using the conscious mind things will go very badly

I suggest that type of thinking is a mistake.

A nice gentleman (Cheers Longwheelie) has explained and demonstrated to me how the weighting of the pegs can influence the bike in a subtle way.

Subtle is a good word to describe that. Suffice to say, if you really need to steer or re-steer in a great hurry, "subtle" is little or no use to you. A solid heave on the bars is the only thing that will save you.

Discussing countersteering for personal interest, or with the intent of resolving someone elses' opinion into your own personal resolution is all good, but what will save your life is being able to faithfully (sometimes faithlessly) do it in a blind panic without fear, hesitation, or question.

All motorbikes countersteer. Not all riders can. Make sure you can, and make sure you can do it automatically.

Steve

[R-Soul]

countersteering the physics thing is the only way you are going to start cornering, but technique-wise its not, It is hard to distinguish between the two on forums. And straighting up can be done by adding plenty of speed too!

Thats like saying that the best way of painting a house is by dipping your brush, dabbing it on your face, and then applying the paint. And then, when someone points out that perhaps dabbing it on your face is not required, saying that it is becuase it makes you feel subjectively more comfortable in hot weather.

I haven't said use bad techniques cos they use less thinking, I have said try them all and do whatever you think is best.

No, you said that if it comes naturally because you dont have to think about it, even if its not the most effective way, then its best.

I argue that if you are using a subcoinscious act that is a by-product of a misplaced action to carry out bike control, then you are on scary ground. Because that technique may only work in normal everyday situations and not in extreme ones.

I believe that riders should start off on the basis of learning the most effective way that works in all situations, and make that the habit that comes naturally. What you're saying effectively is "persist in bad habits because they are already there and you can do them without thinking".

Well if we go back to the OP the safest answer is obviously both.

What if both are not always capable of being applied simutlaneously? What if doing one is distracting you from carrying out the most effective action to teh best of your ability?

yup, we're basically just repeating ourselves now, you guys saying countersteering (the technique) offers better performance if done right, me saying it aint the only way to do it, and I have agreed it is the best if done properly.

OK just to get this clear: The act of getting the bar to turn can only be done by actually turning the bar. You may believe that standingn a peg causes the bar to turn, but I am saying that does not. It is you either:
- tensing up your shoulder movement, or
- dropping your shoulder into a corner, or
- subconscious movement from shifting your bum or
- whatever else

But the fact is that the turning is coming from the direct application of force on the bar. Nothing else.

[R-Soul]

haha, this is kb, and that was no bitchfight, only vague (at best) insults were even traded :P

However it did stimulate me to actively practice my countersteering (technique) on the way home, especially with man-hole covers, one thing I find is if I look at the obstacle I am avoiding I bar-pull instead of push, where-as if I think about the line instead, I will bar push. So same hand as side I am thinking of, must be brain sides or something!

hehe yeah on KB this is regarded as scientific debate?
Thats a very interesting observation. I will try it out on the way home now...

[bogan]

Thats like saying that the best way of painting a house is by dipping your brush, dabbing it on your face, and then applying the paint. And then, when someone points out that perhaps dabbing it on your face is not required, saying that it is becuase it makes you feel subjectively more comfortable in hot weather.

nope, thats a straw man argument, you should trying reading posts with an open mind, it can be quite enlightening I find. A more apt analogy would be a guy who paints using a roller who is shown a spray paint gun, once he learns how to use the gun properly he will be a much more efficient painter with a better finish quality, but to start off with he will probably get uneven coverage or runs.

No, you said that if it comes naturally because you dont have to think about it, even if its not the most effective way, then its best.

and I stand by that, to use countersteering effectively (especially in an emergency situation) it has to come naturally.

I argue that if you are using a subcoinscious act that is a by-product of a misplaced action to carry out bike control, then you are on scary ground. Because that technique may only work in normal everyday situations and not in extreme ones.

dude, we get it, countersteering has the potential to be better than other techniques in these situations.

I believe that riders should start off on the basis of learning the most effective way that works in all situations, and make that the habit that comes naturally. What you're saying effectively is "persist in bad habits because they are already there and you can do them without thinking".

No I'm saying when its crunch time, do the one you can do without thinking, then maybe it won't end up being crunch time, so to speak!

I've said try em all and stick with the one you think is best, if countersteering is universally awesome, then surely everyone will choose that, so whats the problem?

What if both are not always capable of being applied simutlaneously? What if doing one is distracting you from carrying out the most effective action to teh best of your ability?

what if aliens throw you under a caravan?

OK just to get this clear: The act of getting the bar to turn can only be done by actually turning the bar. You may believe that standing a peg causes the bar to turn, but I am saying that does not. It is you either:
- tensing up your shoulder movement, or
- dropping your shoulder into a corner, or
- subconscious movement from shifting your bum or
- whatever else

But the fact is that the turning is coming from the direct application of force on the bar. Nothing else.

I agree.