Countersteering vs body leaning?

[R-Soul]

haha, this is kb, and that was no bitchfight, only vague (at best) insults were even traded :P

However it did stimulate me to actively practice my countersteering (technique) on the way home, especially with man-hole covers, one thing I find is if I look at the obstacle I am avoiding I bar-pull instead of push, where-as if I think about the line instead, I will bar push. So same hand as side I am thinking of, must be brain sides or something!

Maybe because when you are trying to avoid something, you are not worried about getting body into position for acorner, just in getting the lean over. Whereas when you think of a line your body autmatically jups into cornering mode? You probably push in a corner, right?

[R-Soul]

Now, if we can just get a bit about waving in here as well we should have the ultimate contentious thread.

Why, who waved at me?

[bogan]

Maybe because when you are trying to avoid something, you are not worried about getting body into position for acorner, just in getting the lean over. Whereas when you think of a line your body autmatically jups into cornering mode? You probably push in a corner, right?

why get your body into position? I thought you said a wee push on the bar was all it took

yeh, but thats cornering technique, I always try and leave the outside arm dangling so there for better control and feedback.

[R-Soul]

Woo Hoo - Cage fight! As Bogan said maybe next time I will be more careful choosing my thread title. My bad for expecting anyone to read the body of text.

I think it is interesting to sit at home and reseach and think about things. However, once I sling my leg over the seat I let my body do what it does. I know that if I attempt to ride the bike using the conscious mind things will go very badly

A nice gentleman (Cheers Longwheelie) has explained and demonstrated to me how the weighting of the pegs can influence the bike in a subtle way. The trick is (and this is what I was missing) is to get your bum slightly off the seat to ensure your mass acts through the footpedal not your ass crack.

Thats why its called "weighting the peg".

Also- the footpeg weighting thing:

Footpeg weighting does NOT steer the bike.

What it does is make the bike feel (at least subjectively) more settled in a corner. If you look at a bike from the front, the pivot point is teh contact patch with the ground. The further away the rider is firmly connected to the bike from the pivot point - such as at the saddle- the more unbalanced the rider will be on the bike.

This is because small movements of the rider will create reation forces on the bike at a longer distance from the pivot point (and hence use a longer lever arm to move the bike about its pivot point). If the biker is firmly connected to the bike at a lower place -such as the footpegs-, then movements by the rider are transferred as reaction forces to the bike via the footpegs (thereby usinga shorter lever arm), and unsettling the bike less.

My post below describes why weighting the pegs helps (as I understand it anyway).

[MSTRS:Me]

However it did stimulate me to actively practice my countersteering (technique) on the way home, especially with man-hole covers, one thing I find is if I look at the obstacle I am avoiding I bar-pull instead of push, where-as if I think about the line instead, I will bar push.

Now, that is interesting. However, all it is really saying is that you should look where you're going cos you'll go where you're looking!!

[bogan]

Now, that is interesting. However, all it is really saying is that you should look where you're going cos you'll go where you're looking!!

Well I still countersteered in the correct direction, just it was a pull steer instead of a push

[MSTRS:Me]

But did you weight your outside peg and hang your arse off, while simultaneously trail-braking and accelerating?

[davebullet]

Why, who waved at me?

Lateral waving will unconsciously create countersteer. At the right resonant frequency a decent KB wave can induce a tank slapper.

Based on the above, I can confirm countersteering and waving are symbiotically linked. Therefore, if you need to turn a bike, you have to commence waving.

[sinned]

There are correct techniques and ones that are ineffective or plain wrong. Why not practice using correct techniques until they become the only way you do the action and then are the way you behave or respond in an emergency?

There is a lot about riding a motorcycle which is not natural and that is why inexperienced and untrained riders will for example:1)too hot into a corner, brake, stand the bike up and run wide off the road;2) close the throttle in a bend when the rear spins up resulting in a high side; 3)looks at that object on the road and runs into it; 4) in emergency braking when the rear slides 'naturally steers' the bike into a low side. To respond correctly in these situations requires practicing correct techniques until those become so ingrained they become the only way you respond.

The point I was making is in that last second, you don't want to be thinking about all the physics etc, you want to just do it, if weighting the pegs (or any other method) does the bar push subconsiously, what is the difference? And I didn't mean do what makes you feel confortable, but the one that you are most comfortable using, ie what comes naturally.

What comes most comfortably could well be the end of you.

As long as we know that the PRIMARY reason for crisp, immediate, controlled turning comes from that push (or pull) on the bars and have practised it to the point where thinking about it is not required...

Absolutely

As are many others mate
Fact is leaning causes you to put pressure on the 'inside' bar eg the one on the side your turning toward, and that means your pushing that bar out...eg countersteering
Had this discsuiion with a mate, and when he actively counterseered he realised how much more positive control and reaction time he gained

Now he just needs to make that technique a habit to be a better and safer rider.

Keep in mind that other relative newbies might be reading this and trying to make sense of counter steering from it. I agree that you should use what comes naturally, since you will probably revert to it in panic situations. But then why not ingrain the most direct method to be the one that comes naturally? By using it all the time?

I only agree if what comes naturally is to apply correct technique and that means training and practice until doing it correctly comes naturally.

Well we are comparing techniques, while your ABS example is a comparison of hardware. We are talking about learning and unlearning and relearning thee most effective technique for riding a bike, not which system is teh most effective. for both suystems, the optimum technique is progressively grabbing a fistful of brake, and modulating it until it is just at that point before the tyre breaks traction. Its just on an ABS bike, if you DO break traction, the system kicks in and modulates the brakes automatically. If you are not, you have to release the brake and reapply again. Your good technique on an non-ABS system would still be good technique on an ABS system. The ABS system just helps you if you dont have good technique.

Interesting situation with ABS in cars. The vibration in the pedal has caused some drivers to release the brake - resulting in an avoidable crash. The rule for ABS is to hammer the brake and keep it down disregarding the pedal vibration. The same rule probably applies to motorcycles but no doubt some kb expert will correct me?

Countersteering is the ONLY way you are going to start cornering. And indeed, straightening up afterwards.
How you achieve it is somewhat up to the individual, but at the end of the day, there is no more effective way than the push/pull on the bars. All other inputs may be of assistance, but in and of themselves, are not very effective.

MSTRS I have read your statements on this topics many times on kb. Nothing beats the power of repetition, - but on kb I am not so sure. Keep up the posts - they add value.

Now, that is interesting. However, all it is really saying is that you should look where you're going cos you'll go where you're looking!!

Not looking at what you want to avoid hitting is another skill to develop until it becomes 'second nature'.

Well I still countersteered in the correct direction, just it was a pull steer instead of a push

A pull instead of push is the technique used by some cruiser riders with high, wide and rearward bars. It also helps them look cool. A push is more logical given the low position of the bar and rider on a sports bike.

[bogan]

Lateral waving will unconsciously create countersteer. At the right resonant frequency a decent KB wave can induce a tank slapper.

wait, what? I though the kb wave was a tank slapper, fuck, no wonder I never got one back.

[onearmedbandit]

No the handlebars are the only (effective) method of initiating countersteer.
See the No BS bike link above.

You contradict yourself by first telling me I'm wrong, then adding effective into the mix. So what is it? A flat out 'no' or one with conditions?

[onearmedbandit]

OK just to get this clear: The act of getting the bar to turn can only be done by actually turning the bar. You may believe that standingn a peg causes the bar to turn, but I am saying that does not. It is you either:
- tensing up your shoulder movement, or
- dropping your shoulder into a corner, or
- subconscious movement from shifting your bum or
- whatever else

But the fact is that the turning is coming from the direct application of force on the bar. Nothing else.

I watched an international racer and certified trainer move the bars on his bike by simply moving the weight from peg to peg at a recent training course. He was standing up on the pegs, and not touching the bars. The bike was sharply turning left and right, and you could see the bars moving. How did he do this?

[bogan]

There are correct techniques and ones that are ineffective or plain wrong. Why not practice using correct techniques until they become the only way you do the action and then are the way you behave or respond in an emergency?

countersteering is one of the things I often forget to practice, as it results in a quick change of direction, by riding to the conditions such a change is rarely necessary, what would you recommend as the best way to practice it, swerve round manholes etc on daily riding, find a deserted road to practice on. I'm not keen to do track days on my bike atm btw.

A pull instead of push is the technique used by some cruiser riders with high, wide and rearward bars. It also helps them look cool. A push is more logical given the low position of the bar and rider on a sports bike.

that makes sense, as the bars are about 80mm above the top triple, so somewhere between cruiser and sports. Going to be putting dirtbike bars on it this winter so may end up higher and flatter.

[GOONR]

I watched an international racer and certified trainer move the bars on his bike by simply moving the weight from peg to peg at a recent training course. He was standing up on the pegs, and not touching the bars. The bike was sharply turning left and right, and you could see the bars moving. How did he do this?

Must have been black magic.

[sinfull]

I watched an international racer and certified trainer move the bars on his bike by simply moving the weight from peg to peg at a recent training course. He was standing up on the pegs, and not touching the bars. The bike was sharply turning left and right, and you could see the bars moving. How did he do this?

Thought control !!! His subconcious eye looked where he wanted to go and the bars moved ! Had to be, cause moving the bars is the only way to get them to move (even if it be subconciously) !