Countersteering vs body leaning?

[pritch]

As long as we know that the PRIMARY reason for crisp, immediate, controlled turning comes from that push (or pull) on the bars and have practised it to the point where thinking about it is not required...

Which is true. I think Urano was the first in this thread though to comment on the speed of the turn. ToTW II covers this too.
The only way to turn quickly is to countersteer. Body lean, weighting the pegs, scratching your nuts, or whatever else is all secondary.

While weighting the inside peg is enough to initiate a lazy turn, most of the time it's better to weight the outside peg during the turn, weighting the inside peg can make it easier for the back wheel to spin up. Good if you want to do that, but a bit extreme for riding on the road?

[MSTRS:Me]

MSTRS I have read your statements on this topics many times on kb. Nothing beats the power of repetition, - but on kb I am not so sure. Keep up the posts - they add value.

Just for the record, I'd like it noted that I am not taking lessons from Katman...

[Hitcher]

Sorry to those that suggest otherwise....they are wrong.

Try convincing them otherwise.

[Spearfish]

Its old but its good with a bit of counter steering?, body weight shifting, peg loading, and great opportunities to develop a throughly original KB wave with both hands a spare foot.

[cowpoos]

Try convincing them otherwise.

No one has argued with me yet.

[R-Soul]

You contradict yourself by first telling me I'm wrong, then adding effective into the mix. So what is it? A flat out 'no' or one with conditions?

I explained it below. Hanging your body weight off does make the bike turn eventually. But it gives you about 5% of the steering available by counter steering. Its great if you only ever have to turn corners with 300 m radius (and makes life difficult if you want to change line in that corner).

But counter steering provides the ability to flick bikes from sides to side and turn 90 degree corners. Weight shifting does not. It also allows fro line changing in corners (by adjusting the bars again).

That is what I mean by weight shifting not giving you effective steering. Without counter steering, you have effectively NO steering.

[bogan]

I explained it below. Hanging your body weight off does make the bike turn eventually. But it gives you about 5% of the steering available by counter steering. Its great if you only ever have to turn corners with 300 m radius (and makes life difficult if you want to change line in that corner).

wud be interesting to have a go on the no-bs bike, surely if you can get it to turn slightly, getting off the throttle will get it to turn way more? I'm not advising anyone to actually corner like this btw, unless it works realllllyyyy good

[MSTRS:Me]

... body weight shifting...

The proponents of body-steering will be insufferable when they watch the 5.45 - 6.00 minute section.
They, of course, will conveniently forget the bike is rolling at about 20kph...

[Spearfish]

The proponents of body-steering will be insufferable when they watch the 5.45 - 6.00 minute section.
They, of course, will conveniently forget the bike is rolling at about 20kph...

Yep a couple of puffs on some smouldering embers.

[bogan]

The proponents of body-steering will be insufferable when they watch the 5.45 - 6.00 minute section.
They, of course, will conveniently forget the bike is rolling at about 20kph...

one wonders if lighter wheels would increase the speed at which body steering is still doable, scooters have light wheel who wants to try body steering one at 50kmhr?

Furthermore, if the rotational inertia was removed completely from the front wheel would body steering become effective at any speed?

[MSTRS:Me]

You mean if a counterforce was applied to the front wheel...like a reverse rotating one for instance?
All bets are off as to which sort of steering would be effective. Because I believe the bike would be lying on its side...

[bogan]

You mean if a counterforce was applied to the front wheel...like a reverse rotating one for instance?
All bets are off as to which sort of steering would be effective. Because I believe the bike would be lying on its side...

yeh, spin the discs back the other way real fast or summat (better braking too perhaps?) Yeh wud be a tad different to ride, and considering they haven't even got HCS bikes mainstream (which have obvious benifits) I don't see it happening. I wud assume a similar effect to contersteering would occur though with the change in wheel track initiating the lean, would wanna be well light on the bars at high speed though, a decent sized bumble bee to the knuckles could probably take you out

[R-Soul]

I watched an international racer and certified trainer move the bars on his bike by simply moving the weight from peg to peg at a recent training course. He was standing up on the pegs, and not touching the bars. The bike was sharply turning left and right, and you could see the bars moving. How did he do this?

What speed was he doing?

Counter steering gives you effective steering above about 20kph. He might have been able to use body weight effectively below this - I have not tried this (I will do so and check). At low speeds, the better technique is to turn the front wheel in the direction you want to turn, and lean your body weight outward for a smaller turning circle. This is completely opposite to good technique using counter steering at higher speeds.

And what sort of turning circle was he getting? He certainly could not have been making 90 degree turns in a short time, or taking chicanes...

[R-Soul]

one wonders if lighter wheels would increase the speed at which body steering is still doable, scooters have light wheel who wants to try body steering one at 50kmhr?

Furthermore, if the rotational inertia was removed completely from the front wheel would body steering become effective at any speed?

No the geometry is still bad. When the bike is iupright and balanced, the moment caused by a body hanging off it is relatively minor. even at standstill.
As opposed to when the bike is leaned over already.

[MSTRS:Me]

Point of order here...
Counter steering is the force that acts upon a rotating tyre, causing it to initiate a turn. The term 'counter' comes from the fact that the tyre must turn slightly in one direction, in order to initiate the turn in the opposite directiion.
What ever you do to effect this is known as counter steering, be it peg weighting, body shift or bar input.
Can we not refer to each as they are, not what they cause?