Countersteering vs body leaning?

[MSTRS:Me]

The head stock is a hinge.
If you push/pull the bars, you are operating that hinge and the bike follows in keeping with the input.
If you apply the input to the bike by leaning off/weighting a peg, you are still making that hinge to come into play.
The result is the same, albeit a bit less precise than bar-instigated effect.

[R-Soul]

Case in point- when I try and save or email this picture, it only saves a still frame, and not the moving one. How do you cut and paste this as an animation?

[R-Soul]

two ways, gyroscopic precesion, and trail (so yeh, you assumed wrong).Yip weight out one side casues bike to steer to other side, tipping CM into the corner.

Yeah I figured that out - see my edit. Apologies.

So you can either have a miniscule amount of turn on the front wheel caused by an incidental side effect of peg weighting, or you can have a direct, potent, strong force directly on the bars.

I know which one I want....

[R-Soul]

PS It also occurred to me that while countersteering initiates lean, the positioning of your body to the inside will also encourage the faster dropping into that lean (esp. as the lean angle gets lower). This is because at a particular lean angle (initiated by the counter steering) your body weight placed more inwardly will create a larger moment around the contact patch to rotate the bike over inwardly. So for faster turning, more body weight to the inside is required.

This makes sense subjectively to me, as the technique of counter steering always feels more comfortable and less effort when I have moved my weight inwards (although I know its not the weight shitfing that is causing me to turn).

[MSTRS:Me]

Yeah I figured that out - see my edit. Apologies.

So you can either have a miniscule amount of turn on the front wheel caused by an incidental side effect of peg weighting, or you can have a direct, potent, strong force directly on the bars.

I know which one I want....

Exactly.
If one was to fix the steering head so it couldn't move, the bike would be impossible to ride. It would be very unlikely to even track in a straight line. It would simply fall over.

[bogan]

Yeah I figured that out - see my edit. Apologies.

So you can either have a miniscule amount of turn on the front wheel caused by an incidental side effect of peg weighting, or you can have a direct, potent, strong force directly on the bars.

I know which one I want....

yeh that pretty much sums it up, though I still reckon counter-steering (technique) can be performed fairly well without thinking bout the push etc, and sometime in conjunction with other techniques (subconsiously) such as body steering.

PS It also occurred to me that while countersteering initiates lean, the positioning of your body to the inside will also encourage the faster dropping into that lean (esp. as the lean angle gets lower). This is because at a particular lean angle (initiated by the counter steering) your body weight placed more inwardly will create a larger moment around the contact patch to rotate the bike over inwardly. So for faster turning, more body weight to the inside is required.

This makes sense subjectively to me, as the technique of counter steering always feels more comfortable and less effort when I have moved my weight inwards (although I know its not the weight shitfing that is causing me to turn).

umm, as you lean in more the bike leans out more, so no net gain, and if body leaning adds a miniscule amount to turn in, how will that differ now that you are halfway through the corner?

[MSTRS:Me]

PS It also occurred to me that while countersteering initiates lean, the positioning of your body to the inside will also encourage the faster dropping into that lean (esp. as the lean angle gets lower). This is because at a particular lean angle (initiated by the counter steering) your body weight placed more inwardly will create a larger moment around the contact patch to rotate the bike over inwardly. So for faster turning, more body weight to the inside is required.

This makes sense subjectively to me, as the technique of counter steering always feels more comfortable and less effort when I have moved my weight inwards (although I know its not the weight shitfing that is causing me to turn).

Nope. For a given turn radius at a given speed, a certain amount of lean is required. If you hang off (on the inside), your body is assuming a greater portion of the required lean, meaning the bike doesn't need to lean as much.

[schrodingers cat]

First you have to save it as an file on your pc them upload it and attach it

[CHOPPA]

Forget about all that mumbo jumbo and do what works and feels right. Watch the riders on TV that can actually ride fast and copy what they do

[bogan]

Forget about all that mumbo jumbo and do what works and feels right. Watch the riders on TV that can actually ride fast and copy what they do

or just wait till the S1000RRRR and it'll prolly do it all for you

fuck i'd love to get in on a design project like the s1000rr, probably prefer that to owning one actually

[R-Soul]

Nope. For a given turn radius at a given speed, a certain amount of lean is required. If you hang off (on the inside), your body is assuming a greater portion of the required lean, meaning the bike doesn't need to lean as much.

I am talking about the speed of getting the required amount of lean as you are heading into the corner.

[bogan]

I am talking about the speed of getting the required amount of lean as you are heading into the corner.

the speed of lean in for a given force is only governed by angular inertia, so hunkering down on the tank would increase the speed, but not leaning out. Unless of course leaning out changes the force? but you have already stated it is minuscule.

[R-Soul]

yeh that pretty much sums it up, though I still reckon counter-steering (technique) can be performed fairly well without thinking bout the push etc, and sometime in conjunction with other techniques (subconsiously) such as body steering.



umm, as you lean in more the bike leans out more, so no net gain, and if body leaning adds a miniscule amount to turn in, how will that differ now that you are halfway through the corner?

Maybe by leaning in you create a longer lever arm, thereby creating more moment. Look at the opposite extremes to highlight the situation. By leaning outward, as the bike leans in, the combined COM is at a shorter lever arm about the contact patch so the responsiveness of the bike to drop into the lean is worse ONCE the initial lean has happened.

Weight DOES HAVE AN EFFECT - is what is ultimately making your bike fall over (as an inverted pendulum) and is what is balancing the cornering forces. Countersteering is mainly a technique to get the weight acting in the right directions quickly. Instead of waiting fo rth pendulum to fall over, it is setting it at an angle initially. Buit as soon as the bike has any decent lean on it, the weight will start to have an increased moment to counter or overcome moment created by cornering forces to create angular accelration around the contact patches.

EDITED TO GET THOUGHT RIGHT
Think about it this way. Weight only acts directly downwardly. In order for the downward force of your weight to create a moment about the contact patch, the bike must be, leaned over. The more lean, the more moment created by your weight. But when the bike is upright the weight almost acts directly thourgh the contact patch, and has no lever arm so very little angular accelreation happens.

[R-Soul]

the speed of lean in for a given force is only governed by angular inertia, so hunkering down on the tank would increase the speed, but not leaning out. Unless of course leaning out changes the force? but you have already stated it is minuscule.

Please understand (and everybody reading this) that this is new ground for me too. I regard this discussion as as debate more than fact... I am just trying to figure it out for myself.

[bogan]

Maybe by leaning in you create a longer lever arm, thereby creating more moment. Look at the opposite extremes to highlight the situation. By leaning outward, as the bike leans in, the combined COM is at a shorter lever arm about the contact patch so the responsiveness of the bike to drop into the lean is worse ONCE the initial lean has happened.

Weight DOES HAVE AN EFFECT - is what is ultimately making your bike fall over (as an inverted pendulum) and is what is balancing the cornering forces. Countersteering is mainly a technique to get the weight acting in the right directions quickly. Instead of waiting fo rth pendulum to fall over, it is setting it at an angle initially. Buit as soon as the bike has any decent lean on it, the weight will start to have an increased moment to counter or overcome moment created by cornering forces to create angular accelration around the contact patches.

EDITED TO GET THOUGHT RIGHT
Think about it this way. Weight only acts directly downwardly. In order for the downward force of your weight to create a moment about the contact patch, the bike must be, leaned over. The more lean, the more moment created by your weight. But when the bike is upright the weight almost acts directly thourgh the contact patch, and has no lever arm so very little angular accelreation happens.

firstly weight is a bit of an ambiguous term in physics, most say gravity, or mass, depending on what is meant. Leaning in or out creates exactly the same moment, conservation of angular momentum.

Please understand (and everybody reading this) that this is new ground for me too. I regard this discussion as as debate more than fact... I am just trying to figure it out for myself.

fair enuf, I find it very interesting to work out all the subtle thingamyjgs happening while I'm riding, though most are too hard to think about while actually riding to be of any use.