Countersteering vs body leaning?

[schrodingers cat]

Read a couple of really interesting articles recently.


http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0110_art/index.html

http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0302_art/index.html

THe discuss the mechanics of counter steering vs Body leaning.

My question is: They talk about weighting the footpegs to influence the chassis. I can sort of see what they are getting at but wind myself into knots experimenting on the (empty) road.

Can someone please explain in detail the hows/whats/Whyfors of this?
Esp the appropriate timing and sequence of the rider inputs

[Hitcher]

The general consensus on Kiwi Biker is that the laws of physics don't apply to motorcycles and that there is no such thing as countersteering. The local genii have convinced themselves that it's their bum steering that gets the business done. Interestingly none have agreed to have a spot of weld attached to their steering heads in order to test these theories.

[crazzed]

my useless 2 cents worth is using both, depends where and when though.

as your were

[CookMySock]

Of course you can steer with your weight - move your arse and shoulders far to the left and the bike (in it's own time) will initiate a lazy turn to the left. The trouble is, this is a really inconcise way to steer a bike. Miscalculate or roll over a surface irregularity and the bike responds too early or way too late and then you have to fine-tune with bar pressure.

There's no point steering wth your arse - it's too slow. There are two reasons to put your weight inwards - conserving your angle of lean because you're going to need it, and being in the correct posture should you have to tip in really deep should you need to.. Let's not forget also - it's fun.

Steve

[rustic101]

I use a body shift (I guess that's leaning?) for minor corrections or avoidance. Only tend to do it when splitting at a quick pace.

[crash harry]

Have a search around on the intarwebs for Keith Code's experiments with the "No BS" bike (BS = Body Steering = Bullshit) - a bike with a second set of bars that are fixed to the chassis so you can't countersteer it. He found that even the best riders can only initiate a really lazy wide turn, and it was really hard to control. When people say "I don't use countersteering" or "I use weight shifts to steer the bike" what they mean is "I don't know that I'm using countersteering" but they still are.

This video shows the "No BS" bike in action..

[rustic101]

This video shows the "No BS" bike in action..

Bloody interesting video - I guess I use counter steering then lol Cheers for that was not even aware.

[Smifffy]

Counter-steering is a very un PC and negative term, I think they are trying to get it called pro-unsteering, and the select committee is now calling for public submissions on the laws of physics, with a view to updating them for the new millenium and possible inclusion in a non-binding public referendum at the next election.

Power to the people!! - please make your vote count

[marty]

omg here we go again

Search gyroscopic presession.

[BMWST?]

ANY bicyle type vehicle is controlled by countersteering,body weight can steer a motorcycle but nothing like a good yank on the bars

[NighthawkNZ:Me]

All two wheeled conptraptions counter steer... and it natrually does it... when you talk counter steering all you are doing is enhancing what the bike is doing natrually to get round a corner.

Steering by weight and or just leaning is only a very very small part that helps the counter steering process. Take the counter steering out of the equation all you will do is veer the bike off course not actually steer it and that is both just leaning and weight shift.

My suggestion is you need to watch the video "Twist of the wrist II". It explains it all and puts the science behind it.

[Urano]

The general consensus on Kiwi Biker is that the laws of physics don't apply to motorcycles and that there is no such thing as countersteering. The local genii have convinced themselves that it's their bum steering that gets the business done

are you kiddin me??
counter steer is a very basical and widely known driving action: there's no way of gettin a bike where you want if you didn't realize hows the counter steering acts...

THe discuss the mechanics of counter steering vs Body leaning.
My question is: They talk about weighting the footpegs to influence the chassis. I can sort of see what they are getting at but wind myself into knots experimenting on the (empty) road.
Can someone please explain in detail the hows/whats/Whyfors of this?
Esp the appropriate timing and sequence of the rider inputs

now, wait a minute: countersteering is another than using pegs.
so first let's clarify a point: with two wheels (heavy wheels, like motorbikes one) spinning at high rpm, it's pretty hard to achieve a noticeable turn without counter steering.
it's so easy to understand: put yourself in a wide empty park, reach 40-50 kmh stand upright seated without touching the bar, and then, with just your index finger slowly PUSH forward the weight at one end of the handle bar.
the bike will turn on that side.
this is countersteer and is the only way to turn the bike quickly, and to reach the desired lean angle quickly enough to be stabilized in the right position to go through the corner.
not using the countersteer force you to have a continuous lean all through the corner and you'll probably reach the right lean angle at the time you have to get the bike up again at the end of the turn: this not permit to stabilize the motorbike on a track, and you'll go through the corner with continuous corrections...
pretty scary, i'd say...

the pegs is a different talk.
long story short, the bike turns around its center of gravity, which is usually between the engine and the tank.
if you are sit on the saddle, your weight acts on the saddle. if you stand up a little, like a run on a horse, your weight acts on the pegs, which are 20 cm lower and closer to the bike cg.
so the masses are less spread, and the action is quicker, and require less force...

now the sequence.
everyone has his riding style, so everybody will do his way, and it's no sure that what i'm going to say will fit for you.
more than this, remember ALWAYS that theory has to be met with REALITY of roads with incoming traffic, buses, houses...
so the best is to know the theory, adapt it to your style, but most of all, KEEP YOUR EYES OPEN, and be safe.
it's useless to know how to start a turn at 140kmh if round the corner a land rover is still in the middle of the lane.

i'll do this way:
keep near the external edge, but not too much getting the debris and sand always present...
look at the tarmac on the turn, and decide the line to avoid holes, stones, leaves, oil...
start to brake, pretty much front only, while downshifting. the downshift acts like a rear brake...
stop braking when you decide to start turning. i heard a lot of rider, professionals too, that say that's necessary to keep the brake on while leaning the bike: i respect the position, and probably if you're fighting for the podium you'll have to. i'm not, so i prefer to have the bike completely stable before entering the turn.
while the fork is releasing, push the external peg and slide your butt half way off the saddle. turn your internal foot to the inside of the turn, keeping the end of the peg under your footfingers (where the fingers connect to the plant... sorry, i don't know how to explain better it in english...): this will open your inside knee, and put the tank on your external thigh.
now you're ready to turn: so push the internal end of the handle bar and lean the bike. quick. you have to turn.
if you are on a track, the internal knee will tell you how much you are leaning, and how remains before you kiss the ground... if you are not it is not necessary to drive like rossi, so keep it on the safe side...
you are now at the entering speed, with the right gear (remember that leaning the bike will be like having a gear LOWER than when you are upright, so don't downshift too much) and with the bike leaned at the right angle.
LOOK AHEAD at the end of the turn: you have looked at the tarmac BEFORE entering the turn, so there should be nothing new for you. better to look where you are going to...
now, gently, open the throttle, smoothly and continuously.
near the end of the turn start to getting the bike upright, while continuing revving up.
reaching the rpm to upshift at the end of the turn you should be almost right.
and that's it.

the difficult part for me was to lean the bike quick enough.
if you make a slow lean you cannot kwon the the line the bike is going to make, you have probably to brake because you are gone too near the inside of the turn without having turn yet, and everything becomes a mess...
in a 70-80 kmh turn, the things should be: brakes and gear (take your time, no hurry), out the butt, push the bar and lean (at this speed 2 second is decent, 3-4 keeps you in the middle of the turn still working on the bike: too much), smooth throttle, and go...

and please remember to BE SAFE: there always will be someone faster and better than you. look and learn...
hope to be useful...

[p.dath]

This is a good description, including the maths:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle...cycle_dynamics

[oldrider]

The general consensus on Kiwi Biker is that the laws of physics don't apply to motorcycles and that there is no such thing as countersteering. The local genii have convinced themselves that it's their bum steering that gets the business done. Interestingly none have agreed to have a spot of weld attached to their steering heads in order to test these theories.

Basically the reason why I ride a bike, I (and my passenger) are participating and involved symbiotically with the whole process!

Driving or riding in a car by comparison, is simply a mundane and boring event.

[eelracing]

are you kiddin me??
counter steer is a very basical and widely known driving action: there's no way of gettin a bike where you want if you didn't realize hows the counter steering acts...:

Hitcher was just taking the urine old son.

Your English is a hell of alot better than my Italian ...which is nil,but thanks for a bloody good laugh.
Footfingers is priceless