Dear Mr English, I don't want a tax cut

[MikeL]

Its not all bad, in fact we are very lucky. We simply need to appreciate this as a whole nation.

But we don't. Because we've become obsessed with keeping up with the Joneses and so-called living standards and our ranking in the OECD and all the other unimportant things. We'd sacrifice our environment and our quality of life and everything that makes this country special to climb up one rung on the economic ladder. Greed and envy have blinded us to the true values. Don't look to the present government (or the previous one, for that matter) to return to a saner view.

[shrub]

Rule 2: He who has power and wealth makes the rules.

And that is it in a nutshell!

And that's no longer us.

[shrub]

But we don't. Because we've become obsessed with keeping up with the Joneses and so-called living standards and our ranking in the OECD and all the other unimportant things. We'd sacrifice our environment and our quality of life and everything that makes this country special to climb up one rung on the economic ladder. Greed and envy have blinded us to the true values. Don't look to the present government (or the previous one, for that matter) to return to a saner view.

A very, very good point. Somewhere along the line someone sold us on the idea that the only true measure of success/happiness/wealth is the financial one, so we sacrifice everything on the altar of money. Kind of like a bike builder deciding that the only thing to consider is RWHP, so the next thing you know you have a peaky, unreliable, under braked bike that is not just a piece of shit to ride, but is actually slower than it used to be.

I have no problems with making more money and pursuing financial goals, but let's look beyond simple bank balances and look at the world we live in. I'd rather be moderately prosperous in a beautiful, safe country than rolling in cash in a shit hole. If I wanted that I'd go and work in Baghdad.

[mashman]

Rule 1 - A community's wealth comes from production.

a community's wealth comes from its people... shit pay, shit people, shit community... unless of course you're born to make profit...

[shrub]

a community's wealth comes from its people... shit pay, shit people, shit community... unless of course you're born to make profit...

It comes down to whether your interpretation of wealth is confined to money, or whether you can look beyond those constraints.

[mashman]

It comes down to whether your interpretation of wealth is confined to money, or whether you can look beyond those constraints.

Completely agree with you... although without the people of the community there is no money... this isn't the chicken and egg scenario that some seem to believe holds true... If they're pissed off or disaffected for some reason (perhaps theft is easier money, perhaps they're happy with what they have) then there is no money/wealth generated (only taken)... I see that more as a fact than an interpretation... but that's just my perspective ...

[shrub]

Completely agree with you... although without the people of the community there is no money... this isn't the chicken and egg scenario that some seem to believe holds true... If they're pissed off or disaffected for some reason (perhaps theft is easier money, perhaps they're happy with what they have) then there is no money/wealth generated (only taken)... I see that more as a fact than an interpretation... but that's just my perspective ...

And I would argue that without a functioning community money has little value.

[mashman]

And I would argue that without a functioning community money has little value.

Could also say that even with a fully functioning community money has little value... but i'm biased ... to me it's all trust... and financial systems breed mistrust amongst the people and is generally responsible for 90% of business related crime... ya know, business where all of our money goes... a simple look at the headlines each day from around the globe shows that the same shit (and much worse in many cases) is going on overseas... if that's what we have to look forward too, because we're "keeping up with the jonses", then i'd rather do something entirely different and as quickly as possible...

[shrub]

I think money needs to be seen as a mechanism, not an objective. It's a mechanism that allows the transfer of skills, services and goods between individuals who have, and groups who do not have, but we have made the mistake of placing a monetary value on everything - for that I blame the accountants, and that monetary value is an arbitrary value that has little relationship to reality. For example, why am I as a management consultant worth more than an equally well trained and equally skilled nurse or teacher? I don't see my work as being of any greater value to the greater good of my society, yet I can command more. Which is good because it means I can study full time and work part time.

Which is another failing of the current system. We are all compelled to get as much as we can, even when we don't need it. I remember approaching one John Harrington of Harrington's beer fame and offering my services to build his business. When he asked why, I said so he could make more money and I have never forgotten his response: "what do I want with more money? You can only eat and drink so much, and I do too much of both". He is one of the few genuinely rich people I know, and I suspect he'd be just as rich if he had 1/10th of his money.

BTW I ended up working for him - I convinced him to use my services because that way more people would drink his beer which he believes to be better than the big breweries offerings (and he's right).

[mashman]

I think money needs to be seen as a mechanism, not an objective. It's a mechanism that allows the transfer of skills, services and goods between individuals who have, and groups who do not have, but we have made the mistake of placing a monetary value on everything - for that I blame the accountants, and that monetary value is an arbitrary value that has little relationship to reality. For example, why am I as a management consultant worth more than an equally well trained and equally skilled nurse or teacher? I don't see my work as being of any greater value to the greater good of my society, yet I can command more. Which is good because it means I can study full time and work part time.

Which is another failing of the current system. We are all compelled to get as much as we can, even when we don't need it. I remember approaching one John Harrington of Harrington's beer fame and offering my services to build his business. When he asked why, I said so he could make more money and I have never forgotten his response: "what do I want with more money? You can only eat and drink so much, and I do too much of both". He is one of the few genuinely rich people I know, and I suspect he'd be just as rich if he had 1/10th of his money.

BTW I ended up working for him - I convinced him to use my services because that way more people would drink his beer which he believes to be better than the big breweries offerings (and he's right).

The problem is seperating the two... if the value is negligable, why have it... there'll always be those who value their effort more than anyone elses... and I'd say that's the vast majority of people... not trying to be cruel, but that's just the way it is... we're subject to market forces and that market won't just go away because the majority start to see money as a mechanism... You need a full on shift in thinking if you want to tackle more than 1 issue at a time... something that does not have value... the request being enough to illicit the service and the donation offered when you have more than you need... it's not trade or barter and I hate saying for the greater good, but that's what it amounts to... do yer bit and the world will tickover without the financial contraints that have been holding us back, dividing us, generating "political" power, causing social unrest etc... I can't see money helping at all, never has, never will...

Heh, so you get free beer for life too ... but I know what you mean about the rich getting more out of a business than what they put in, and finances are a dull 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc... bloody good attitude to have...

[shrub]

I wish I got free beer for life... I got a few boxes and plenty of cash.

Sadly yours and my vision, while very doable, will never happen because too many people are bound up with terror of not having as much money as they can get their hands on. My colleagues in the marketing companies have been too successful.

[MisterD]

Rule 1: He who owns the means of production has the power and the wealth.

Rule 2: He who has power and wealth makes the rules.

And that is it in a nutshell!

Yet he who makes the rules obviously has control of the means of production...Et voila! An argument pulling itself up by its own shoelaces....

[shrub]

Yet he who makes the rules obviously has control of the means of production...Et voila! An argument pulling itself up by its own shoelaces....

And the best way to get into a position to make the rules is to control the means of production which is why the more our assets are sold the less autonomy we have.

[mashman]

I wish I got free beer for life... I got a few boxes and plenty of cash.

Sadly yours and my vision, while very doable, will never happen because too many people are bound up with terror of not having as much money as they can get their hands on. My colleagues in the marketing companies have been too successful.

lol, my Wife can't grasp the concept that i've thrown around, so know what you mean in regards to the letting go... The thing that gets me is that these same people will have the same worries as us, to a lesser or greater degree no doubt... but the worries about the safe society, the gangs, the excessive bank fees, inflation, who's in power (like there's ever a shift in that regard), education, health, the future etc... yet they believe that money can take you there... it can't... if it could, wouldn't it have taken less than 2000+ years to have accomplished that goal... wouldn't all of the above mentioned "concerns" have been sorted...

This is why the financial system has to go and needs to be replaced with an "honour" system... like you say we can see 2 different ways of moving forward... but there's only a handful of us that think so... the majority are a mixed bag of: don't think about it, throw it out as hippy nonsense, push it away because it's not their party policy etc... thus filed in the never gonna happen basket... not fully realising that it's their votes that actually stop "solutions" from being adopted... but sok, someone has a plan ... it just so happens to be a very bad one...

[davereid]

Rule 1: He who owns the means of production has the power and the wealth.

No amount of hand-wringing and crying will stop it being the case. Get over it. Produce something. History tells us that being productive and having new technology can put you at the top of the heap. Crying wont do it.