Dear Mr English, I don't want a tax cut

[Coldrider]

So why is that tax is legislated for, and yet to get receipt of a benefit or allowance that is qualified for is not?

[Winston001]

So why is that tax is legislated for, and yet to get receipt of a benefit or allowance that is qualified for is not?

Yes it is, Social Security Act 1964

have a look here, knock your socks off http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/p...rity_resel&p=1

Oh yeah - you'll need the Regs too http://www.legislation.govt.nz/regul...rity_resel&p=1

Enjoy!

[cowpoos]

ingrained assumptions.

Careful....You may regret that statement. Something Phill Goff knows alot about

[Pussy]

Careful....You may regret that statement. Something Phill Goff knows alot about

Bugger off, Poos.... he doesn't know that much about anything!

[cowpoos]

No, it's because your opinions are weak founded and you have no balls.

Well to be fair...Tanks Opinions may actually be at a level above your station...and they are pretty balanced.

So you probably don't understand them...Don't feel bad...I'm sure you have your ow merits!!

[Coldrider]

Well to be fair...Tanks Opinions may actually be at a level above your station...and they are pretty balanced.

So you probably don't understand them...Don't feel bad...I'm sure you have your ow merits!!

I only read his trolling with Shrub, and thought it was bad taste. I am not interested in Tanks financial opinions or yours.

[cowpoos]

OECD researchers have just declared that New Zealand already has one of the lowest tax burdens among OECD countries!

errrrr......that staement without the backround facts and conclusions....not to mention how they calculated the ratings...is not very true.

[rainman]

OK - I have to admit - that did make me laugh a nice Green Bling for you.

Good on you for having a sense of humour!

FFS you do community work for 30h a week and you can't find a job..... Ummmmmmmmmmmm you are awake for 16h a day, you have 80 free hours during your week, you allocate 30h to work then the rest for job hunting. It's not that hard you soft cocks.

Um, Tank was trolling, but now that you mention it: I'm glad when people do community work. Be nice if more people did, tbh. I assume from your comments you do 30h a week? After all, you have 80 hours free, less 40 for working, 30 for community work, you'd still have 10h for telly and pissing around. No? Or are you a soft cock?

Now the question of skill and capital... Boohooo. Newsflash! Everyone in NZ is entitled to free education, then for tertiary you take out a student loan. If I could come out of varsity with a loan and pay it off then anyone can.

I was talking about starting and running a business, not getting an education.

I think you might be misunderstanding my view of welfare. In an ideal world I would like everyone to be in productive work. You may have heard of this as "full employment". Unfortunately it's not an ideal world, and:
- Some are completely incapable of working, through illness or disability (physical or mental)
- Some are not very motivated
- Some have diminished capacity, for example they are not able to do physical work due to an injury but could do light duties/admin
- There are varying levels of capability available and required - some are unskilled through lack of education or experience, some are just not very bright bulbs. Some people are good with "book learning", some are more practical. Some are very smart and highly talented, just not much practical use. Some are good with animals, some with engines, some with neither. This is just common sense.

Now, combine this with another dimension - the jobs available to be done, which also have a range of attributes. In the ideal world, the highly capable people have highly demanding jobs suiting their skills, the partially capable have jobs requiring what they are capable of, and everyone inbetween is also neatly matched to a job they can do. Hell, since it's an ideal world, make it a job they actually want to do. Assume everyone is rewarded commensurate with their effort (be careful, this may not mean what you think). Sounds like the paradise that is frequently called for here - everyone is pulling their weight, everyone is being rewarded, no-one is slacking. As people develop better skills they can climb up the ladder into better jobs and better reward. This is pretty much what can happen in the course of a single person's career, innit? Problem is a whole society does not work this way - you can't just scale it up.

For one thing the incapable and not very capable won't be able to support themselves - and sometimes the presently capable, through accident and illness, become the no-longer capable. Shit happens. Faced with a choice between "let the fuckers starve" and "let's give them a hand", the non-sociopaths among us opt for the latter. (Feel free to disagree here, but remember, we're all watching). Where this support cuts off is debatable, but it's pretty clear it's required.

For another, a modern economy measures success in money, rather than the well-being and capability of the citizens, so provision of employment and employees is largely left to market mechanisms. Now the market is reasonably effective at delivering ballpoint pens, or motorcycles, or takeaway curries, but it's not so hot at providing jobs and skilled people to do them. Reasons for this are complex and I hesitate to type yet another loooong post, but timing differences, domain complexity and sphere of influence/scoping issues are the main ones that spring to mind. And the fact that incentives along the supply chains are often decoupled. As a result, whereas we usually have about as many ballpoint pens in the right range of colours available to us, we usually have too many or too few skilled people, or the wrong set of skills, and often too few jobs. Like now. Those that are left out after the end of each round of musical chairs need support like the others, but to assume they are incapable themselves (or useless) is just illogical.

This mismatch is what makes us inefficient (apart from it making some people's lives really bloody miserable), and as it's been in place for a while we have built some entrenched positions, which often war with each other along predictable lines. Problem is no-one's actually trying to solve the real problem. This is a policy issue:
- Where people are incapable, but can be made capable, we should invest in developing them. (Although this is a piece of logic that escapes the average Kiwi manager, so I don't hold out much hope for the rest of us getting this).
- Likewise where people are unskilled, we should invest in upskilling them, so that they can contribute to the mission of the society.
- Where they are unmotivated, we should understand why and encourage them to change (carrot and stick)
- All of us are learn at different rates, and to different practical limits, so i may be that some will not grow as far as others. We should seek to provide meaningful jobs for people at a range of levels.
- Those who excel shoud gain reward, but we should not tolerate limitless and unseemly greed.
- All of this needs to be managed across time, dealing with changes caused by technology and other external factors

Not easy. But the alternative is just discarding people on the junkheap of society. Sink or swim. Unsurprisingly, this is not sustainable, and I'd say flatly unethical. Another reason why i think neo-lib hyperindividualism is just immature selfishness disguised as a political philosophy - it's not very evolved or skillful.

Of course, all of this assumes we have a common identity based around a nation-state, ideally with some sort of vision/social mission, with proper reporting and measuring - and that we haven't just become money-chasing corporate droids. Oops.

Alternatively, imagine it's like you are running a business (NZ Inc) where your staff can resign and leave if they want (and lots have been leaving to go work for a competitor), you can hire as many new ones as you want, but you can't fire anyone, or make people redundant. Anyone who leaves can come back later and you have to hire them again, at least at minimum wage. All the people who are not active for whatever reason must just go sit in the corner, and you still have to pay them minimum wage. And you are still under pressure to grow the bottom line so you can carry on running the operation and making payroll. Plus your share price will go down if you go into the red and have to borrow. You've already hocked off a lot of the furniture to pay the bills. What strategy would you follow in order to succeed?

[MisterD]

???????? Focus now , its NZ we are talking about .

You're the one that brought 1930's Germany into the discussion...

[mashman]

blah blah blah

Brilliant post...

The policy is obvious, well to me it is... but the too hard basket still isn't full yet... NZ inc needs to change its business culture...

[Winston001]

Good on you for having a sense of humour!
Alternatively, imagine it's like you are running a business (NZ Inc) where your staff can resign and leave if they want (and lots have been leaving to go work for a competitor), you can hire as many new ones as you want, but you can't fire anyone, or make people redundant. Anyone who leaves can come back later and you have to hire them again, at least at minimum wage. All the people who are not active for whatever reason must just go sit in the corner, and you still have to pay them minimum wage. And you are still under pressure to grow the bottom line so you can carry on running the operation and making payroll. Plus your share price will go down if you go into the red and have to borrow. You've already hocked off a lot of the furniture to pay the bills. What strategy would you follow in order to succeed?

Nice post and I've only clipped this bit because full comment could take pages.

As a starting point I believe NZ Inc is in good shape, particularly if we include quality of life as a measure of success. NZ has a beautiful and compact, stunning landscape which I don't believe is echoed anywhere else. Long deserted sandy beaches, rugged bush covered hinterland, fertile plains, alpine mountains to rival Europe, and fast flowing clean rivers. We even have arid quasi-desert regions. Yes I know, water is the cause de jour and we can find pollution if we look hard enough but most of our rivers and streams are still sparkling. NZ wouldn't be a fishing mecca otherwise.

On top of that our food is fresh and plentiful. We have modern infrastructure and technology. No-one need starve or lack opportunity. And lastly - there are sod-all of us. Its hard to describe how unique this vacant space is. I've been to India where privacy, peace, and quiet is virtually impossible. There are people absolutely everywhere. Treasure our solitude because most of the world doesn't have it. Asian tourists find the vast silent spaces of the South Island frightening because it is literally alien to them.

The downside is we live half a world away from our dominant Western culture. We seek - and have, the wealthy lifestyle of Europe and the USA but keeping it is the trick. NZ survives only because of trade. We produce very little of what we take for granted - motorcycles, power generators, cell phones, trucks, etc are all purchased from other nations.

I would like to see some sort of national conversation where we all become aware of the realities of being isolated - both good and bad. It would take 10 years and ideally we'd coalesce as a people with common accepted goals. One reason for Irelands industrial success (yes I know they are having a tough time right now) is the homogeneous nature of the people. When the Irish govt proposed subsidies for international businesses, both employers and unions spoke as one and supported it. By contrast we fight each other and nastily too. You can't achieve much that way.

[rainman]

Nice post and I've only clipped this bit because full comment could take pages.

Sorry... Maybe I should start a blog.

I would like to see some sort of national conversation where we all become aware of the realities of being isolated - both good and bad. It would take 10 years and ideally we'd coalesce as a people with common accepted goals....By contrast we fight each other and nastily too. You can't achieve much that way.

Spot on. I was saying to someone the other day that it would be OK to have an honest conversation about the "tough stuff" we might have to face, as long as it was honest, non-ideological, and acknowledged past successes and failures... Pigs might fly, though.

Anyway, I've strayed way too far off the tax topic so maybe I should leave with a recent parting quote from Nouriel Roubini (who was predicting trouble in the US quite a while before it happened): "From here on I see things getting worse.... What needs to be done is clear. We need to raise taxes and cut spending. Otherwise we're going to get a fiscal train wreck," he said. "It's going to take years of sacrifices." Maybe worth a think.

[Brian d marge]

[QUOTE=Winston001;1129760111]Nice post and I've only clipped this bit because full comment could take pages.

As a starting point I believe NZ Inc is in good shape, particularly if we include quality of life as a measure of success. NZ has a beautiful and compact, stunning landscape which I don't believe is echoed anywhere else. Long deserted sandy beaches, rugged bush covered hinterland, fertile plains, alpine mountains to rival Europe, and fast flowing clean rivers. We even have arid quasi-desert regions. Yes I know, water is the cause de jour and we can find pollution if we look hard enough but most of our rivers and streams are still sparkling. NZ wouldn't be a fishing mecca otherwise.

Are they ? http://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/3...rst-in-the-Wes ( I doubt the reasoning but no smoke without fire )

On top of that our food is fresh and plentiful. We have modern infrastructure and technology. No-one need starve or lack opportunity. And lastly - there are sod-all of us. Its hard to describe how unique this vacant space is. I've been to India where privacy, peace, and quiet is virtually impossible. There are people absolutely everywhere. Treasure our solitude because most of the world doesn't have it. Asian tourists find the vast silent spaces of the South Island frightening because it is literally alien to them.

Your food is too expensive ( Tokyo is cheaper trust me ) infrastructure yes you do have it , State highway one? the overlander ? metro linK ? Airports excluding fields with a hut , ala napier

People from Hokiado may want to disagree with you about those wide open spaces , though I myself do find the wide roads and high speeds a bit of getting used to , but then I dont know how the average Kiwi could cope with our roads try 50 km down your drive way for a idea

and i am sorry there is no way u have the life style of europe , Hungary is similar and trust me better

ON the SURFACE NZ is good , but sorry I wouldnt want to live there ( I dont, REDNECKS nows your chance ) it is a nice place , but sorry other places are equal if not better ,, and I have lived in a few countries

At the moment I have a new house with all the mod cons , only work 5 hours a day , a 2 year old car, education is good , health care is excellent , beer is , almost free , 3000 yen for all u can drink . whiskey is 20 bucks for a scotish single malt ..... should I go on?

Sorry but this godzone thing is a myth

75 % ( according to national radio ) is on around 40 000 , whats that about 700 a week? I reckon ( and of course I am not sure on this because I can only get from internet )
but u would need to be on 1000 to 1200 a week to have a reasonable standard of living ( 3 bedroom house , car, garden , utilities internet ( not dial up ) education food etc)

Someone correct me if I am wrong

Finally, snip ( The ESRI also suggested that: Our forecasts suggest that Ireland’s economy will contract by around 14 per cent over the three years 2008 to 2010. By historic and international standards this is a truly dramatic development.<sup>[62])

and the rest</sup> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_Tiger#Consequences

but this bit I really agree with, but this is a western trait of individualism , ie I am right sod u

s, both employers and unions spoke as one and supported it. By contrast we fight each other and nastily too. You can't achieve much that way


Stephen

ps I tried quickly to multi quote but it went pear shaped , and I have to run so soory for the format

[Brian d marge]

You're the one that brought 1930's Germany into the discussion...

working on a reply hang on

[Brian d marge]

Just a quick question it is related , what happened in the early 1990s that suddenly made tertiary education user pays ?

Stephen