Dear Mr English, I don't want a tax cut

[avgas]

Gawd but she is boring.

Reality is a son of bitch

[rainman]

The problem lies with human beings. We are inherently capitalist, even if we hate to admit it.

Note to readers of this thread: davereid does not understand what capitalism is.

But the era of the super nerd making his millions out of the Net ended about 10 years ago. there's a few still cashing up, but the Internet is now corporatised.

Absolutely - very little is not corporatised these days, and the shift from nation-states to corporate interests is of profound concern. Big oil co's or investment banks that operate in tens of countries are a difficult thing to deal with when it comes to matters of labour, tax, environmental behaviours, ...

Also, the "innovations" that reward their inventors are usually derivatives of derivatives of derivatives of CDOs, or some such thing unrelated to the productive economy. Come the revolution, I say we line up all the quants and their handlers against a convenient wall...

[mashman]

Come the revolution, I say we line up all the quants and their handlers against a convenient wall...

why wait

[Scottie]

I have worked for both the public and private sector and I now run a small private sector firm. I am convinced that the private sector is just as incompetent as the government at running things - it's just that the private sector is a bit more greedy.

[mashman]

Not that anyone will care, but the UK have released figures on the costs of benefit fraud to the tax payer... pretty stunning numbers for a country slightly smaller than NZ (a look into the future perhaps)... http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/28052010/389...-revealed.html

[davereid]

...Note to readers of this thread: davereid does not understand what capitalism is....

Actually, it may be that you are right.

I'm defending the right of people to go about their lives non violently. Buying and selling willingly, without a man with a gun demanding tax, koha, insurance or a bribe.

I can see how that can be obtained by a system based on fair trade, with minimal government .
A system where I can sell the products of my endeavour at the highest price the purchasers are willing to pay, and that the profits I generate doing this cannot be taken off me by force.

This does not preclude government from existing, or as I have already explained, from collecting tax.
It doesn't preclude government from social spending either, as it is free to open the peoples tractor factory if it wishes, or to buy shares in my tractor factory.

It doesn't even preclude government collecting social taxes from individuals if they wish to contribute.

All it does is say, you can't steal it.

[MikeL]

All it does is say, you can't steal it.

And to prevent other people from operating their own version of private enterprise and robbing you at gunpoint of your money or your tractor factory you presumably want protection from the police, who will of course be paid for by voluntary contributions from the community?

[rainman]

Actually, it may be that you are right.

Now there's a waste of half a dozen words...

I'm defending the right of people to go about their lives non violently. Buying and selling willingly, without a man with a gun demanding tax, koha, insurance or a bribe.

I can see how that can be obtained by a system based on fair trade, with minimal government .
A system where I can sell the products of my endeavour at the highest price the purchasers are willing to pay, and that the profits I generate doing this cannot be taken off me by force.

This does not preclude government from existing, or as I have already explained, from collecting tax.
It doesn't preclude government from social spending either, as it is free to open the peoples tractor factory if it wishes, or to buy shares in my tractor factory.

It doesn't even preclude government collecting social taxes from individuals if they wish to contribute.

All it does is say, you can't steal it.

That's really lovely, but it's as idealistic as my libertarian socialist utopia, and as likely to happen. Which is to say, not at all. I'd still argue that trade (only) as a basis for society rather than a community built on common identity is less resilient and more likely to fail, but the libertarian perspective in your picture above is not actually a million miles from my own. Like I say, I'm fond of personal responsibility - as long as it is tempered by compassion.

Back in the real world, though, we don't have anything like our respective ideals in place, so how about instead of arguing about that which isn't gonna happen, we work out how to improve what we actually have?

Switching rapidly to either view would be hugely destructive. Addressing all of the mess of modern day living, dealing with generations of inequity and imbalance of power, social systems that don't encourage resilience but rather dependence on large-scale commerce, the frankly incredible levels of de-skilling and lost capability that have taken place over the last few generations, reducing the cancerous role of the finance sector, removing complexity (and therefore "brittleness") from our social and economic systems, and addressing the cultural issues or powerlessness, disengagement ,and, yes, laziness... will take generations at best. And I'm not even including religion, race, gender and the rest of the background human issues! I'm also assuming there will be no large exogenous shock, like, say, radical climate change or an energy transition cause by resource depletion. Which there will be, within the timeframes under consideration.

In that context, arguing for a libertarian utopia does seem a lot like fiddling while Rome burns.

[davereid]

And to prevent other people from operating their own version of private enterprise and robbing you at gunpoint of your money or your tractor factory you presumably want protection from the police, who will of course be paid for by voluntary contributions from the community?

Governments can raise income without taxing individuals. There are numerous methods, I already discussed some earlier in the thread.

Glad to see you have given up defending tax at gunpoint though !

[mashman]

Back in the real world, though, we don't have anything like our respective ideals in place, so how about instead of arguing about that which isn't gonna happen, we work out how to improve what we actually have?

Switching rapidly to either view would be hugely destructive. Addressing all of the mess of modern day living, dealing with generations of inequity and imbalance of power, social systems that don't encourage resilience but rather dependence on large-scale commerce, the frankly incredible levels of de-skilling and lost capability that have taken place over the last few generations, reducing the cancerous role of the finance sector, removing complexity (and therefore "brittleness") from our social and economic systems, and addressing the cultural issues or powerlessness, disengagement ,and, yes, laziness... will take generations at best.

I disagree, but have as much of a chance of seeing my ideas come to fruition as "fair trade" actually being fair... It WILL take a single generation... the planning will take 2 - 3 years... consultation will be with the entire country... then implement it once the rest of the world agrees... removing the "financial system" does not mean we cannot survive in a financial world (again you just need to think your way around it)... i'm surprised the "intellectuals" can't grasp the concept... it's simple... much more simple than fucking around and arguing over tax rates and any tax in general... and tackling a whole raft of social issues by default, probably changing day to day life for the better... if you still have an imagination left, i dare you to use it...

[Argyle]

Most people are not on +50K, it's more like 28 - 33K Annually..... I got a letter from Telstraclear and Mercury saying there will be an increase in their bills.. Add on to this higher GST plus higer rents from landlords....

Hopefully there will be an increase in wages also!!

[avgas]

Most people are not on +50K, it's more like 28 - 33K Annually..... I got a letter from Telstraclear and Mercury saying there will be an increase in their bills.. Add on to this higher GST plus higer rents from landlords....
Hopefully there will be an increase in wages also!!

Nah doesn't look like it.
On the upside it looks like lots more people are gonna quit smoking. So you target demographic should be saved.
That is unless they give food stamps for smokes.

[avgas]

Not that anyone will care, but the UK have released figures on the costs of benefit fraud to the tax payer... pretty stunning numbers for a country slightly smaller than NZ (a look into the future perhaps)... http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/28052010/389...-revealed.html

I would say that in NZ is probably twice as bad (per head) than UK. The main problem here is there NO WHERE to report it anon.
I love it how WINZ can send letter automatically to the most expensive roads in NZ.

[rainman]

I would say that in NZ is probably twice as bad (per head) than UK.

On what basis?

The main problem here is there NO WHERE to report it anon.

The main problem here is that there's f-all work around at the moment, and the tax cuts (funded by borrowing, what's more) are unlikely to do a great deal to fix that... Seriously, how many benefit fraudsters do you know, that you would need to report? If you have ever had to deal with WINZ, you might have a gentler view. Put it this way, they make ACC look competent.

[RON SOAK]

When is a tax cut not a tax cut? when delivered by dorks like key and co. Whats up with NZ? seems to be determined to do as badly as possible while whinging as much as possible and complaining about it to no one in particular. shoot the cunts and start again!