Pre89 Senior YSS Suspension FZR1000, Vic R1

[Robert Taylor]

Its not age thats my limiting factor since im early 20s Peter(premature old age looks due to being sparky)its generally a lack of fitness and eye hand coordination.

Im going to fit a yss rear suspender on mine and we will see what difference it makes on the track seeing as i have riden mine stock for 2 years the times will indicate how well it works.I decided to do this 3 months ago and and Kerry advised me to allow Codgy to run it and get good settings on the FZR so that mine could replicate his set up.Seeming a good idea to me.
I have RT front end already so im a bob each way hows that.

It will be undoubtedly good as it will be a lot better than the oem ''gap filler'' and getting some rear ride height and all the positives that brings will be a big bonus. In the back of your mind though will be the lingering thought ''I wonder how much better again it would have been if I had fitted one of those European shocks with lots of racing pedigree?" Especially as the variation I offered you had an internal top out spring, allowing you to brake a little later again with more stability. But hey youve made your bed and that is made for lying upon
Perhaps you could have saved both yourself and myself a little time by having divulged your intention when I talked to you a month back? I like it when people are straight up, as I have been.
Please dont misconstrue this in any way as sour grapes, I just know where the very real advantages lay with the product we distribute.

[gixerracer]

Man you talk some crap

It will be undoubtedly good as it will be a lot better than the oem ''gap filler'' and getting some rear ride height and all the positives that brings will be a big bonus. In the back of your mind though will be the lingering thought ''I wonder how much better again it would have been if I had fitted one of those European shocks with lots of racing pedigree?" Especially as the variation I offered you had an internal top out spring, allowing you to brake a little later again with more stability. But hey youve made your bed and that is made for lying upon
Perhaps you could have saved both yourself and myself a little time by having divulged your intention when I talked to you a month back? I like it when people are straight up, as I have been.
Please dont misconstrue this in any way as sour grapes, I just know where the very real advantages lay with the product we distribute.

[mossy1200]

Great to hear of the upgrade Mossy !, better pull my finga out. P.S , bring a rain coat and a nice wooly jumper n mittens.......

Kerry told you hes gunna make you ride it till its set up?That was the deal clincher for me.

[codgyoleracer]

Kerry told you hes gunna make you ride it till its set up?That was the deal clincher for me.

Thank you for the kind offer, but one 21 year old motorcycle is quite enough for me thanks.... :-)

[Robert Taylor]

Man you talk some crap

Well I never fail to keep you entertained Craig! And we both know a lot about top out springs.

Heres some more good ''crap'':
Glen, remove the rear top out spring from the TTX in your SV and go test it, will be interested in your findings. ( If you havent done so already )
This is an interesting subject, companies such as WP and Ohlins wholeheartedly embrace them, US shock manufacturers and most others dont seem to and cynically I think for many its in the hard pile. On balance we have always had better results using them. Several tests that I performed at Phillip Island in removing them out of Katsu Fujiwaras Kawasaki demonstrated that performance and laptimes were worse when removed.
This week we are installing a top out spring in a model that doesnt have one, in a front running bike in one of the classes.
Its more expensive to fit top out springs and all the neccessary appendages inside a shock but an increase in price for better performance shouldnt deter a suspension manufacturer.

[sugilite:Me]

One day Rogor Fitz, One day!
I'll never retire, it's only cash flow that keeps me away. One kid has left home, 3 to go lol

Anthony ,....... shut up with advice and get yourself back on the track . Where the hell have you been hiding ???

Paul.

[PeeJay]

Ok put it this way, go for a ride with what has been fitted then go for a ride with the product we distribute, I know only too damn well which ones youll prefer. Its a very real point of difference that in the real world is very apparent. Im not saying that what has been fitted is ''no good'' Im saying that what we offer is measurably better. Simple.
I apologise profusely for having the temerity to use large words and to try and explain things.

I agree 100%, fit Ohlins to just about anything and it will be "better"
But if there is no real problem (real or imagined) to solve then fitting Ohlins to make it better is just a case of making it better for the sake of making it better.
eg
A Lexus is "better" than a Toyota, should all Toyota owners rush out and buy a Lexus ?
If there is nothing actually "wrong" with your Toyota why would you? Unless you wanted a Lexus for the sake of having a Lexus
Same here, everyone knows fitting Ohlins will make their bike "better" but if what they have is working perfectly fine for their needs and they dont actually have a problem, then they may as well leave well enough alone. Which considering the number of bikes on the road with stock suspension, the vast majority of people do.
Of course if you want Ohlins for the sake of having Ohlins, and have money burning a hole in your pocket, then go for it.
Nothing wrong with a bit of bling

[SS90]

I agree 100%, fit Ohlins to just about anything and it will be "better"
But if there is no real problem (real or imagined) to solve then fitting Ohlins to make it better is just a case of making it better for the sake of making it better.
eg
A Lexus is "better" than a Toyota, should all Toyota owners rush out and buy a Lexus ?
If there is nothing actually "wrong" with your Toyota why would you? Unless you wanted a Lexus for the sake of having a Lexus
Same here, everyone knows fitting Ohlins will make their bike "better" but if what they have is working perfectly fine for their needs and they dont actually have a problem, then they may as well leave well enough alone. Which considering the number of bikes on the road with stock suspension, the vast majority of people do.
Of course if you want Ohlins for the sake of having Ohlins, and have money burning a hole in your pocket, then go for it.
Nothing wrong with a bit of bling

Years ago, brand names where created on quality (not the same today) names like Adidas,Tissot,Bentley, and so on, came about in an era that quality was all, and it was more important how long it lasted, rather than if it was stocked at the Warehouse in Epsom.

Same is true for established motorcycles, the brands that where not up to scratch fall by the wayside (Meridan Triumph , Harley (almost destroyed by the better quality and cheaper Jap bikes), J.A.P, Norton, and so on, )

The thing you will note about the bike manufacturers that have stood the test of time, is that their (better quality) bikes where never cheap, and, still today, are not, and, their stand out points are their quality.

Why is it so hard to accept that "quality come with price"

It is such a simple concept to grasp, but in this "free market economy", some of us have trained ourselves to believe that if it is not cheap, then we are being robbed.

It is simply not correct.

[PeeJay]

Years ago, brand names where created on quality (not the same today) names like Adidas,Tissot,Bentley, and so on, came about in an era that quality was all, and it was more important how long it lasted, rather than if it was stocked at the Warehouse in Epsom.

Same is true for established motorcycles, the brands that where not up to scratch fall by the wayside (Meridan Triumph , Harley (almost destroyed by the better quality and cheaper Jap bikes), J.A.P, Norton, and so on, )

The thing you will note about the bike manufacturers that have stood the test of time, is that their (better quality) bikes where never cheap, and, still today, are not, and, their stand out points are their quality.

Why is it so hard to accept that "quality come with price"

It is such a simple concept to grasp, but in this "free market economy", some of us have trained ourselves to believe that if it is not cheap, then we are being robbed.

It is simply not correct.

Agree that quality comes at a price. The point here is how much quality do you need?
eg a $200 tv made in china (cheap) is as good as the best you could buy 10 years ago. The whole "quality" curve has moved up with new efficient manufacturing techniques and distribution etc
I dont entirely agree with your thought as to why the old bike manufacturers died off. They mostly died because their business model was outdated and they couldnt/wouldnt change fast enough to suit the post WW2 world. Their manufacturing and way of doing business hadnt changed much since the second world war and earlier. This included quality machines of the era eg Vincent.
Japan and and Germany essentially had to start all over from scratch so they had the opportunity to do it differently, more efficiently etc. They also had an incentive to get cracking, they were literally starving.
The allies however had won, so they sat around and had a rest, and back to business as usual. And besides if we won the war we must know what we are doing yes?
Manufacturers need a lot more than quality in order to survive today.
When you look at modern mainstream motorcycles from a quality point of view they are all much of a much.
Manufacturers may market themselves as having more "quality" but in reality the majority of this quality is perceived rather than actual.
I have had a couple of occasions worked on the latest crop of MV.
In my opinion the "quality" they promote is an illusion, underneath it all they are no different to your everyday garden variety 4 cylinder motorcycle. There are numerous aspects to them that are definitely low quality, you dont see these until you start pulling them apart.
In essence the bikes are no different to anything else except they are marketed differently.

The way I look at it YSS etc are probably as good as Ohlins were say 5 yrs? ago
And if Ohlins were fantastic 5 years ago then YSS cant be that bad today.
(And I know hp, frame, tyres, have all moved on over the last 5 years as well)
But on a pre 89 it could be just the ticket!!
cheers

[codgyoleracer]

Well I never fail to keep you entertained Craig! And we both know a lot about top out springs.

Heres some more good ''crap'':
Glen, remove the rear top out spring from the TTX in your SV and go test it, will be interested in your findings. ( If you havent done so already )
This is an interesting subject, companies such as WP and Ohlins wholeheartedly embrace them, US shock manufacturers and most others dont seem to and cynically I think for many its in the hard pile. On balance we have always had better results using them. Several tests that I performed at Phillip Island in removing them out of Katsu Fujiwaras Kawasaki demonstrated that performance and laptimes were worse when removed.
This week we are installing a top out spring in a model that doesnt have one, in a front running bike in one of the classes.
Its more expensive to fit top out springs and all the neccessary appendages inside a shock but an increase in price for better performance shouldnt deter a suspension manufacturer.

Top out springs ? , I,me more concerned about bottom out springs with my fat arse sitting on the bike Rob......... :-)

[Shaun]

Top out springs ? , I,me more concerned about bottom out springs with my fat arse sitting on the bike Rob......... :-)

Just carry on with Ya Silly Shock mate

[scracha]

Same is true for established motorcycles, the brands that where not up to scratch fall by the wayside (Meridan Triumph , Harley (almost destroyed by the better quality and cheaper Jap bikes), J.A.P, Norton, and so on, )

The thing you will note about the bike manufacturers that have stood the test of time, is that their (better quality) bikes where never cheap, and, still today, are not, and, their stand out points are their quality.

Oh I dunno. I hear Suzuki are still making bikes.

[Robert Taylor]

Agree that quality comes at a price. The point here is how much quality do you need?
eg a $200 tv made in china (cheap) is as good as the best you could buy 10 years ago. The whole "quality" curve has moved up with new efficient manufacturing techniques and distribution etc
I dont entirely agree with your thought as to why the old bike manufacturers died off. They mostly died because their business model was outdated and they couldnt/wouldnt change fast enough to suit the post WW2 world. Their manufacturing and way of doing business hadnt changed much since the second world war and earlier. This included quality machines of the era eg Vincent.
Japan and and Germany essentially had to start all over from scratch so they had the opportunity to do it differently, more efficiently etc. They also had an incentive to get cracking, they were literally starving.
The allies however had won, so they sat around and had a rest, and back to business as usual. And besides if we won the war we must know what we are doing yes?
Manufacturers need a lot more than quality in order to survive today.
When you look at modern mainstream motorcycles from a quality point of view they are all much of a much.
Manufacturers may market themselves as having more "quality" but in reality the majority of this quality is perceived rather than actual.
I have had a couple of occasions worked on the latest crop of MV.
In my opinion the "quality" they promote is an illusion, underneath it all they are no different to your everyday garden variety 4 cylinder motorcycle. There are numerous aspects to them that are definitely low quality, you dont see these until you start pulling them apart.
In essence the bikes are no different to anything else except they are marketed differently.

The way I look at it YSS etc are probably as good as Ohlins were say 5 yrs? ago
And if Ohlins were fantastic 5 years ago then YSS cant be that bad today.
(And I know hp, frame, tyres, have all moved on over the last 5 years as well)
But on a pre 89 it could be just the ticket!!
cheers

I absolutely do not agree that the subject shocks are as good as Ohlins were 5 years ago but Im not about to write screeds to emphasise why. The comparisons are obvious.
But think of it in these terms, Nissan didnt make too bad a motor car 5 years ago but not as good build quality or as long term robust as a Toyota. 5 years on Nissan still dont make too bad a motor car, but not as good quality or as robust as a Toyota. Expenditure on R&D and introducing new radical designs embraced by the top ends of the racing world and the market as a whole also define a product. I see innovation from Penske, Ohlins and WP but not from the mid price and low price manufacturers.
Twin shocks are also a very good example. Aside from quality level limits bought about by end price / position in the market targets most if not all low and mid price twin shocks have very small diameter body tubes. That means they have very small pistons and shim stacks and also very low oil capacity. Smaller shims are less responsive than ''bigger bore shims'' and need to be quit aggressive in setting to afford a decent level of damping. That, allied with very minimal oil capacity means they can tend to fade rather quickly if ridden briskly on our high proportion of bumpy roads. Smallness also means less load bearing surface areas and faster wear / less long term longevity.
People often also get preoccupied with having external damping adjusters on their low cost twin shocks when in reality its whats on the inside that counts most. Adjusters are used as a marketing tool but all too often the internal calibration is not that stunning and the adjusters are meaningless in trying to correct that deficiency. Many people have struggled with that, we hear about it all the time.
The top end manufacturers all produce twin shocks with much bigger tube and therefore piston size ( Penske, Ohlins and WP ) That pays huge dividends in terms of accuracy / precision of build, low friction, easier to control accurately a larger mass flow, shock strength ( seen a lot of broken small body shocks ) etc etc. To convert my bigword ''BS'' diatribe, better performance, longer life, better ride quality ( often much better ) etc etc.
With respect to Post Classic its now possible to build TTX36 with a hose reservoir and of course internal top out spring. In a bike such as Glens that would result in a lap time as much as 1.5 seconds per lap faster than what it is currently doing ( maybe more ), once fully optimised. Any comparisons have to be fully apples for apples, same rider, same bike, same tyres in same condition, same track and conditions. Just change the suspenders.
Id be happy to build one for Glenn to test but I guess he has rather boxed himself into an arrangement.

[SS90]

Oh I dunno. I hear Suzuki are still making bikes.

Oh, wow, you got me there! hahaha!

I can remember being a first year apprentice and the RF900 was something like 20K, and by the the time the TL1000 came out the RF was something like $7999, and the amazing thing was, at this time, they went from the 20K RF900's being packed in steel fames, which where bolted together, to the last of them coming in almost balsa wood like crates with opaque plastic wrapping, and the same bolts that used to hold the old steel crates together, now being assigned to holding the footpeg brackets on the bike!

Peejay make some good points though....... experience tells me that quality will always win over in the end.

[PeeJay]

Reading your last post regarding the manufacturing of twin shocks.
Why dont the the lower end manufacturers make big bore shocks like Ohlins Wp penske?
Its not a manufacturing/production problem
Its not a problem with basic design
The Asian manufacturers arent stupid
So what is stopping them ?
Is it a licensing/patent issue?
I imagine YSS would be sensitive to patent issues as they seem to be wanting to be a mainstream and worldwide business.
But others may not be so worried about patent violations