Help for a girl just getting into it (oracle)

[Sentox]

Oh yeah... welcome to Kiwi Biker! Run away now.

[Little Miss Trouble]

I guess the fundamental difference is that I think a little knowledge is better than ignorance. No doubt, you can reach a proficient level of riding without any reading/training/whatever. It will almost certainly take longer and be more pain-filled, unless you were somehow incapable of learning in any capacity to begin with (in which case you'd probably lack even a basic education).

Where did I say I had no riding training? I got myself along on rides and learnt from those who've been doing it a hell of a long time, some who've been riding for more years than I've been alive!

"What feels right" leads to numerous rider errors. What feels right is rolling off throttle if you're too hot into the corner, riding crossed up instead of leaning with the bike... the list goes on. Target fixation, arm tension under panic, etc, all come 'naturally'. Most riders will either defeat these in time, or learn to live with them... or crash.

You seem to be a little confused here, fear/panic reactions, do not feel right at all, they upset the bike and you come away thinking WTF??!
I was talking about a person's own natural style, what feels right for me for example, is virtually not touching my brakes at all when riding through twisties, I use throttle control and gearing to make the bike behave the way I want, this comes natural to me, but is not an absolute and everyone should find their own 'correct' way of doing things to suit them.

I'm in complete agreement that you don't need to analyse every facet of your riding. That's not for everyone. But nearly anyone can improve their riding skills faster with a little knowledge. Get better quicker, be safer? I guess that's not for everyone either.

Edit: sorry to the OP for the semi-hijack. At least you have some varied opinions to consider

So we are basically agreeing after all that then? That people should improve their skills in whatever way suits them and that their are no absolutes - other than the laws of physics (which some here will still argue!) Coz thats all my fooken point was in the first place.


P.S. I would suggest you go meet some of the 'old bastards' that still ride and take their advice over interwebby 'experts'

[ReQuiEm]

Humans are "naturals" at a few things sure.. that is call "instinct" which is something we have developed throughout our existence, unfortunately.. we have not had cars, motorcycles and other such machines very long at all, comparatively speaking

we all learn differently, some of us have the "right stuff" and get by with trail and error and no instruction from anyone, it can often be a painful experience, and its very easy to miss the finer points when you have nothing to relate too, reading a book or watching a video is not going to teach you how to ride, neither is talking to someone for advice, most humans learn by doing, very simple concept

if we can relate this to another learning experiences, martial arts for sake of an example, one can argue that humans naturally know how to defend themselves.. but you can practice for years and years, doing something that actually IS natural to humans, and still get roflstomped by an actual training and experienced martial artist.. why?

this is all subjective as hell, some are happy being "competent" and "safe" riding on the street their whole lives, but would never sit foot on a track, some are a bit of a mix..of course, but the inescapable truth here.. is that humans are all different, and we all have different barriers to overcome when we learn something new, regardless of what that might be


who taught most of us to drive our first car? or go-kart.., ride our first bike? we all have to learn everything we do, is it safer to have some help? of course, we should NEVER try to force "our way" onto another person, never tell anyone to learn "your way" let them do it the way they feel comfortable with, what sane person would argue its "bad" to read a book on a subject? seems pretty dumb to me.. but this seems to be what is being suggested

maybe its bravado? posting such replies to further your own ego, suggesting that you did it the "hard way" and anyone who does it the "easy/boring" way is less amazing than you


generally speaking humans suck at most things they try, some exceptions sure, but overall.. its best to give yourself every advantage you can when learning something that could easily kill you, with a simple mistake.. but either way, its still dangerous even if you read books, take courses etc., understanding the finer points of the machine you are attempting to operate is a MUST in any situation, and there is a big divide between learning WHY something happened, and experiencing it happen... who can possibly argue that?

I want to see an inexperienced rider back into a corner, consistently without high siding, because hes doing "what feels right"... im sure he could learn that technique through "trail and error" over the majority of his natural life.... hmm >.>

[Sentox]

Where did I say I had no riding training? I got myself along on rides and learnt from those who've been doing it a hell of a long time, some who've been riding for more years than I've been alive!

Well, that's one of the ways I consider learning. All I'm trying to say is that going it competely alone is ill-advised. If learning from others works better than books for you, sure. I just think that gaining a little understanding of how to ride goes a long way.

You seem to be a little confused here, fear/panic reactions, do not feel right at all, they upset the bike and you come away thinking WTF??!

I agree, poor word choice on my part. I'm just trying to make the point that these panic reactions are going to be your natural response to difficult situations on a bike. It's much easier to conquer them (imo) if you know what you're supposed to do. Knowing something and doing it, of course, are two very separate things. But the former should help the latter.

So we are basically agreeing after all that then? That people should improve their skills in whatever way suits them and that their are no absolutes - other than the laws of physics (which some here will still argue!) Coz thats all my fooken point was in the first place.

More or less, I guess I agree that you should learn however suits you best... but I firmly believe that you should actively learn. Try to build a complete riding style from instinct strikes me as a dangerous path.

P.S. I would suggest you go meet some of the 'old bastards' that still ride and take their advice over interwebby 'experts'

I don't get all my knowledge from interweb 'experts', you know I consider people like Nick Ienatsch, Andy Ibbott, Keith Code, etc, to be fairly reliable sources. They're veterans, and make a living out of teaching the pursuit of riding. Chances are they know a thing or two.

[nodrog:Me]

you cunts read too many fuckin books.

[R-Soul]

*Facepalm*

Have you stopped to think that perhaps these riders are just 'natural' riders who do infact just learn by doing what feels right rather than having to read loads of books and over analyse everything? I wonder if Rossi has read a million books on technique or mentally calculates the ratios of tip in before each corner?

Not everyone learns the same way, what works for you may not work for someone else, so I would humbly suggest you STFU and stop over complicating everything

FYI I had two accidents as a kid PURELY because nobody had told me about counter steering, or because I had not done any research myself. As soon as I found out about it, I was a million times safer on my bike. Since then I have ravenously researched techniques (because NOBODY ELSE TELLS YOU OTHERWISE) and spread them around as much as I can for what they may be worth in helping others. I like to thinkthat in a very short time, my own riding has grown better exponentially. So, no, I WILL NOT STFU.


Why do you think Rossi (in particular) is called "The Doctor"? Do you think its because he learns the hard way by falling off a lot? Or do you think its because he analyses tracks, cambers, elevation, radiuses and gear ratios in depth, and goes out on track knowing exactly what works well, and where? I think you know the answer - nothing "natural" about it.

If you want to learn the hard way, fine. Then the school of hard knocks is for you. Dont overtax your straining brain with difficult thoughts. But your assertion that these people are "natural riders" is laughable. Riding is NOT intuitive for most techniques and for most people (and I argue that those that think it is natural for them are deluded). But encouraging a new rider to not even try to understand the basic techniques (or even find out about them) because its "over complicated" is downright criminal.

I admit I do tend to analyse thingsto the nth degree - and I do it out of curiosity and because I do learn that way (I prefer to learn from others mistakes) . If others dont want to be part of those discussion, dont read them. Some people do get useful info/tips out of it, and good on them. The OP ASKED what was the best way IN OUR OPINION - I told her.

I wanted to warn her about people that would try to discourage in-depth thought, learning of thoeretically good technique and application of teh technique on the road, and who apparently get abusive when any alternative than their own simple minded approach is recommended.

[R-Soul]

No, I call that a survival reaction that is brought forward by panic. To me, "what feels right" is a course of action that is ideal for the situation.

Sure, if you're a total wussbag who finds riding a motorcycle completely and utterly unnatural.

So if standing the bike up and braking hard (when going into a corner too hot) does not "feel right" then why do ALL newbie bikers (and a lot of 'ol boys too) still do it? It obviously IS the fallback position for the brain because it does feel the most comfortable.

[R-Soul]

FYI I had two accidents as a kid PURELY because nobody had told me about counter steering, or because I had not done any research myself. As soon as I found out about it, I was a million times safer on my bike. Since then I have ravenously researched techniques (because NOBODY ELSE TELLS YOU OTHERWISE) and spread them around as much as I can for what they may be worth in helping others. I like to thinkthat in a very short time, my own riding has grown better exponentially. So, no, I WILL NOT STFU.


Why do you think Rossi (in particular) is called "The Doctor"? Do you think its because he learns the hard way by falling off a lot? Or do you think its because he analyses tracks, cambers, elevation, radiuses and gear ratios in depth, and goes out on track knowing exactly what works well, and where? I think you know the answer - nothing "natural" about it.

If you want to learn the hard way, fine. Then the school of hard knocks is for you. Dont overtax your straining brain with difficult thoughts. But your assertion that these people are "natural riders" is laughable. Riding is NOT intuitive for most techniques and for most people (and I argue that those that think it is natural for them are deluded). But encouraging a new rider to not even try to understand the basic techniques (or even find out about them) because its "over complicated" is downright criminal.

I admit I do tend to analyse thingsto the nth degree - and I do it out of curiosity and because I do learn that way (I prefer to learn from others mistakes) . If others dont want to be part of those discussion, dont read them. Some people do get useful info/tips out of it, and good on them. The OP ASKED what was the best way IN OUR OPINION - I told her.

I wanted to warn her about people that would try to discourage in-depth thought, learning of thoeretically good technique and application of teh technique on the road, and who apparently get abusive when any alternative than their own simple minded approach is recomemnded.

And you will note from my original post tht I did not tell her to understand the physics - I told her to read up on techniques. Obviously asking people about them is also good. But FOOKING learn them from somewhere dammit!

[bogan]

FYI I had two accidents as a kid PURELY because nobody had told me about counter steering, or because I had not done any research myself.

[Sentox]

ONLY A SITH DEALS WITH ABSOLUTES

So is your philosophy more like this?



Just kiddin

[Little Miss Trouble]

FYI I had two accidents as a kid PURELY because nobody had told me about counter steering, or because I had not done any research myself. As soon as I found out about it, I was a million times safer on my bike. Since then I have ravenously researched techniques (because NOBODY ELSE TELLS YOU OTHERWISE)

So you aren't a natural rider & you had no mates to help you?

Geez that must suck, good thing we aren't all like you huh?

[bogan]

So is your philosophy more like this?



Just kidding

that kid really needed to look up a family tree or something.

[nodrog:Me]

that kid really needed to look up a family tree or something.

its ok, isnt his name mark hamilton?

[R-Soul]

So you aren't a natural rider & you had no mates to help you?

Geez that must suck, good thing we aren't all like you huh?

No - my mates believed in learning naturally....
And when I was a kid, the internet didn't exist! Or else I could have gone on KB and be told to "do what comes naturally" by you....
And I am rather happy that you are nothing like me...

[davebullet]

Oh the humanity... Back on topic for the OP....

Oracle - Some questions:
1. Do you want to go over 60kph? (eg. do you want a powerful scooter or a motorcycle? Are you commuting in town or planning on highway riding?)
2. Is fuel economy important to you? (eg. Hornets will eat more gas than a Scorpio)
3. Are there any bikes you don't like the style of? (eg. cruiser, vs. standard naked, vs. standard faired, vs. sports faired)
4. How tall are you? (not a prying question - but affects seat height as some bikes can be difficult for the physically short - even learner ones)
5. Do you plan on keeping for a few years or might you want a bigger bike (I know - hard to know when you've never owned / ridden)
6. Is a new bike warranty important? (or can you / do you have a friend who can inspect a 2nd hand bike)
7. What is your budget? (allow $1,000 - $1,500 for decent protective riding gear - helmet, gloves, jacket, pants and boots). You'll need this not only to be safe but keep warm and dryish over winter