It's official - there are some heinous drivers out there

[MSTRS:Me]

In Charley's research the mode for bike capacity was 250cc - starter for 10: Who rides 250cc motorcycles? The researchh conducted both here and overseas shows a significant negative correlation between accident rate and experience - something we all know intuitively, so you're wrong; we are learning.

But when KM says that we take too long to learn, and/or we don't learn from the mistakes that others make, he is right.
Naturally, the majority of 250 riders will be relatively inexperienced and will have some (nasty) avoidable crashes. A significant number who make it through will make a quantum leap onto a big bike, thinking they can handle it and use what they learned on their 250 = disaster.
Then there's the ones who manage to avoid disaster, perhaps by sheer good luck. That can only last for so long...
And lastly, we have the ones who actually learned (from all sources) and can be considered 'safe' riders. Those are ones we'd like eveyone else to become...

[shrub]

My opinion is that Professor Lamb thinks more of staying onside with motorcyclists than he does of his professorial integrity.

Ah. Then you don't know Professor Lamb or understand the process that his research went through. That explains a lot, and I suspect the main reason you are incorrect is you are unwilling to accept an argument that is contrary to your position regardless of the basis of that argument.

Believe me, Charley would not publish his research if it could be faulted - his professional reputation as an academic is worth much more to him than the opinion of a few motorcyclists.

[Katman]

Believe me, Charley would not publish his research if it could be faulted - his professional reputation as an academic is worth much more to him than the opinion of a few motorcyclists.

Plenty of us have faulted his research.

[bogan]

It's a matter of how many dorks ride and drive is the problem.I am no saint on my bike but i do tend to be very selective as to where i play up. My feeling is that there is plenty of idiots riding, as there is driving, but i do tend to think that there is a slightly higher percentage that ride bikes and i think that is just the nature of the beast in many ways. It's just a bigger buzz to ride than drive. My 2c worth. None of us are perfect enough to judge others me thinks.

thats worth a lot more than 2c I reckon.

[shrub]

Then there's the ones who manage to avoid disaster, perhaps by sheer good luck. That can only last for so long...
And lastly, we have the ones who actually learned (from all sources) and can be considered 'safe' riders. Those are ones we'd like eveyone else to become...

Precisely, if you aren't a competent and safe rider you won't be a rider for long, or you'll be smart enough to pull your bike out a couple of times a year to go to a rally somewhere, drink piss and go home and back to your cage. My argument is that the average experienced motorcycle rider is significantly more skilled than the average experienced car driver, and that skill is not about how fast you can get to Akaroa on a Sunday afternoon, but is probably more a case of how you respond to the dangers around you - a good rider may well be the last one to Akaroa.

I have seen some riding that shits me to tears, and it's often men on large American cruisers or people of indeterminate gender on high powered sportsbikes. The question I ask myself, is how long will they continue to ride?

[Swoop]

the stats say Motorcyclists need to have more defencive training or a FAR harder licencing test !

We have been saying exactly that for years. The "licence from a cornflakes packet" approach that we have had for far too long, is producing the drivers/motorists' that we see and complain about on a regular basis. These "skills" (or lack thereof) are being passed onto further generations who see this as acceptable practice.
It's not like any government is going to do anything about that though...

Ah. Then you don't know Professor Lamb or understand the process that his research went through.

Believe me, Charley would not publish his research if it could be faulted...

That is why peer reviews are conducted on research prior to it being published. If his findings upset some people, so be it.

[shrub]

Plenty of us have faulted his research.

Oh? How? His data source was pretty sound, his data analysis method was rock solid and his conclusions fit all the validity criteria I'm aware of. I know Charley would be keen to get any valid criticism he can because his reputation as an academic is dependent on the strength of his research, and if his reseach is flawed he'll want to know.

[schrodingers cat]

Learning doesn't have to mean making mistakes.

Totally disagree. You may wish to modify your statement to 'Learning doesn't have to mean making injury causing mistakes'. Then we can agree

Also worth noting that the old chesnut -' Practise makes perfect' is inaccurate.
Pratice makes Permanant.
Perfect practice makes perfect

That is all

[Katman]

Oh? How? His data source was pretty sound, his data analysis method was rock solid and his conclusions fit all the validity criteria I'm aware of. I know Charley would be keen to get any valid criticism he can because his reputation as an academic is dependent on the strength of his research, and if his reseach is flawed he'll want to know.

It's in your own Motorcycle Accident Myths thread. From about page 10 onwards.

[Katman]

Totally disagree. You may wish to modify your statement to 'Learning doesn't have to mean making injury causing mistakes'. Then we can agree

Plenty of learning can be done through careful study and analysis of others mistakes.

Mistakes do not have to be made by the learner.

[schrodingers cat]

Plenty of learning can be done through careful study and analysis of others mistakes.

Mistakes do not have to be made by the learner.

Agree in part. Sooner or later the learner will have to try for themselves at which point they WILL make mistakes. Hopefully the prior learning and preparation will mean that the outcome of the mistake is mitigated.

'A wise man learns from others mistakes'
'The man who has never made a mistake has made fuck all'


Think carefully and use your words now

[T.W.R]

Plenty of us have faulted his research.

Charley lamb would be intelectually a far bigger man than you'll ever be and probably more of a motorcyclist too. He doesn't get on here bleeting self righteous ramblings like yourself he actually stood up and did something solid on motorcyclist's behalf.....take a leaf out of his book and step up, do something instead of continously making noise here.

Empty vessels make the most noise

[Flip]

I have no problems with Charley's research, it was very well done. What did he say, motorcycling is dangerous, inexperienced, unskilled or riders who fail to understand the risks associated with riding have bad accidents. It's just applied eugenics, stupid riders don't pass their stupid jeans on.

There are bold riders and old riders but no old bold riders.

Ride like a fool and die.

I really do support compulsory rider training say every 10 years, no training pass no class 6 license. I also think if you cause a accident you loose your license until you have redone the training.

[shrub]

It's in your own Motorcycle Accident Myths thread. From about page 10 onwards.

Well that was a waste of time. I read the petulent bleatings of a couple of people who disagreed and who made it quite clear that they have neither access to the kind of data Charley has, nor have any apparent understanding of statistical analysis.

[shrub]

I have no problems with Charley's research, it was very well done.

But it didn't say that almost all motorcycle accidents are the fault of the rider, so he's wrong. Or so KM would have us believe.