I'm a greeny and think that the ETS is a crock of faeces

[slofox]

money money money.... money sucks I hate the shit...

Yeah. I hate it too...especially not having any...

[Jantar]

Yeah, but you putting your prices up is supposed to put you at a competitive disadvantage against someone who isn't polluting (coal power station vs hydro f'rinstance). Theoretically, anyway.....

No. That can't be it. Because in the NZ electricty market, all generators get paid the cleared price of the highest cost generator on the system. If that one is one that has to buy carbon credits then that price is higher for all geneartors irrespective of fuel source.

Now that may sound like a win for Hydro generators, but it isn't. At the same time all retailers have to pay that same that same higher price, and that is passed on to the consumers. So there is no win and no loss for any of generators irrespective of fuel and there is no win and no loss for any of the retailers, it is only the consumer who suffers. Yes, even the consumers who live in the South Island and have only hydro plant still have to pay the increased costs due to ETS.

[sinned]

Someone needs to start blowing the big polluters up. Waste of time doing it legally. The ets is a crock of shit.

Easy to blame the big polluters; who pollute to give you products at a lower price than from a non/lower polluter. Are you driven to buy cheap?

emissions trading scam. another example of where average Joe Public is hugely against it (ah la Bradfords smacking bill, 85% against from memory), but the govt push the fucking thing through anyway...wankers. Problem is, there's no one else worth voting for.
Personally, I've yet to meet a person who thinks it's a good idea!

It is possible you don't know anyone who knows jack shit.

Yep but I can't see why it won't work. Money is a powerful persuader - just consider the threads on here about the cost of gear, bikes, workshops etc.

The rational business decision is to reduce the carbon consumption so you don't need to buy credits.

You seem to be onto it.

I am with you on this one. Businesses are amoral, money is the only language they speak. ETS is simple - you get money for activities that reduce carbon; you save money by reducing activities that emit carbon. What can be wrong with that?

It may not solve the issue of climate change, but it is a step in the right direction.

It may not be popular but is a step in the right direction. There are two options:
1) Tell most of the world to get fucked we are not going to do anything and don't care if we damage NZ image of 'clean green', nor do we care if we can't sell our primary produce overseas. This will probably mean the only motorbikes you will be able to afford are those cheap horrible things from China.
2) Regulate and introduce a range of carbon taxes to reduce carbon.

ETS sounds like the best option to me.

BTW: Labour and the Greens are on side. ACT are playing some weird game to keep in the news.

[Woodman]

Easy to blame the big polluters; who pollute to give you products at a lower price than from a non/lower polluter. Are you driven to buy cheap?


s.

Don't always go for the cheapest , no. But otherwise guilty as charged. We all support them, and don't always feel good about it.

[mashman]

So yet again the consumer literally pays for the lack of business innovation, too much money going into private hands and not into real R&D... fuckin pathetic.

[Conquiztador]

So if I make my boys use the generator pushbike to charge our batteries and therefore disconnect us from the grid, and we pushbike everywhere, someone somewhere will pay me money?

[dipshit]

so I discover that there are a heap of farmers in India who use bicycles to pump water from wells instead of electricity or fossil fuels, which means they're able to sell their carbon credits (this actually happened).

Actually Indian government ministers sold their carbon credits. The farmers that use bicycles to pump water didn't get a single sausage.

[Swoop]

Effectively
Taxing
Suckers (unfortunately)

Buy some carbon credits from me, and I'll throw in some magic beans!! No postage required, because these are magic beans that will just appear to you.

Sorry, cheques not accepted. Direct deposit preferred. PM for account details.

Form an orderly queue please - I have plenty.

Do you still have any snake oil? I used up that last bottle and I'm still waiting to see the "changes" that were promised. I think I really need to buy some more.

[Scuba_Steve]

Effectively
Taxing
Suckers (unfortunately)

& here I was thinking it ment
Excessive
Tax
Scam

[Winston001]

Sadly for people like you who need a simplistic view to understand the world, life is not a binary; in other words everyone who is a greeny isn't a hard core vegan eco warrior living in a mud brick house on Waiheke island; and there are an infinite number of interpretations of "green" as a behaviour. For example, I eat meat, ride a motorcycle and wear leather when I ride, yet I also grow my own vegetables, minimise the use of my car, use my pushbike for round town and short trips, am a member of the Green party and don't believe in the munificence of the global corporates. Confused? It gets worse: I also think that GE might have some important answers to the problems we face and think that nuclear power may one day be a good thing (but not here if that's OK), yet I am engaged in fulltime research looking at ways that businesses can operate sustainably and profitably and support the Sea Shepherds and Greenpeace.

Agreed, we think alike. I'm a rationalist probably with both green and liberal tendencies. I don't like pollution and hate the greenhouse anthropomorphic debate because it obscures the much bigger problem of finite resources and a finite planet. Too many people living in increasingly desperate conditions -Africa, Asia, and South America.

I think wind power is weak and only pursued because it is easy and visible. Tidal, hydro, and thermal power have much more to give us. IMHO New Zealand is too small for competing electricity generators and we would be far better off with a government operated national energy company. NZED anyone???

Nuclear fission has much to offer but if we bide our time others will produce a viable fusion technology. Let the Europeans do the experiments. In the meantime tidal and geothermal should be developed. We have one of the thinnest crusts in the world around Rotorua with magma just below the surface. We have a huge coastline with tides running twice a day - its a no-brainer. Tough technological challenge certainly but it can be done.

[mashman]

Effectively
Taxing
Suckers (unfortunately)

Nah, as another KB member put it. Emissions Trading Scam... pretty much nutshells it...

[Quasievil]

Nah, as another KB member put it. Emissions Trading Scam... pretty much nutshells it...

yes built and adopted on the basis of the other global warming CO2 scam.
As I said in some other posts on another thread, its all about the money and we will be paying, and now hey looky looky whats happening.

Countries fucked mate, Im so tempted to leave, but to go where ?

[shrub]

I hate the greenhouse anthropomorphic debate because it obscures the much bigger problem of finite resources and a finite planet.

It's a bit hard calling it a debate - on the one side you have scientists and on the other you have religious nut jobs, right wing extremists, a few oddball scientists and big business. It is seen as a debate because the deniers make the most noise and don't bother wasting their time on research when they can find typos in the IPCC reports and take a few stolen emails out of context.

[mashman]

yes built and adopted on the basis of the other global warming CO2 scam.
As I said in some other posts on another thread, its all about the money and we will be paying, and now hey looky looky whats happening.

Countries fucked mate, Im so tempted to leave, but to go where ?

Well ya can't just lose a revenue stream... you have to replace it with something. lol, we came here...

[Winston001]

As I said in some other posts on another thread, its all about the money and we will be paying, and now hey looky looky whats happening.

I don't exactly agree Quasi but I'm not convinced about the ETS or carbon taxes either. None of these ideas were created by some dark cabal in New York to make money, but yes, traders will jump on the bandwagon if there is a dollar to be made. Then we need consultants, analysts, mathematicians, media advisors........so I can see why you might think there is an emperor's new clothes feel to the whole carbon market idea.