I'm a greeny and think that the ETS is a crock of faeces

[davereid]

We have a huge coastline with tides running twice a day - its a no-brainer. Tough technological challenge certainly but it can be done.

Tidal Generation is an environmental disaster. Anywhere with tidal flow gets effectively cluttered with generation equipment, making the seabed look like a wind-farm. I sincerely hope that it never, ever happens.

Even if it turns out, that global warming caused by humans is happening, it is dealt with as if our only mechanism to deal with it is to put the price up.

That may reduce overall consumption, but at every turn, it will at a cost to the poor.

I watch protesters telling me we must tax carbon. I expect to see the same protestors at some time in the near future, concerned about the escalating cost of food, of families and pensioners that can't afford to keep warm, and of increasing numbers slipping below the poverty line.

There is nothing that can change this.
$5 a week is a completely insignificant amount of money to me. But over a year, for a pensioner its an entire weeks income, and more than half a weeks income for someone on the minimum wage.

The only future that makes us better off is technology. Not blind alleys like tidal and wind either. Real sustainalbe technologies like Nuclear Fusion.

If we HAVE to tax, instead of a market, the Government should just say "OK, we are taxing carbon at XYZ%, and all the money raised will be spent on healthcare."

But, its NZ. We will tax hardworink Kiwis, and send the money to Russia, where their nice clean nuclear fission reactors make them an environmental role model.

[Quasievil]

i think you should all realise that his is a small start, a few bucks a week isnt a big deal to most people sure, but what we have now is a system in place, wait for a few years and see what the ETS scam will be costing you.................fiscal creep I think its called, just like a 10% GST .....12.5%.........15% you get the story, same will apply

[Iggy]

This is ETS scheme is one the biggest bullshit political rorts of all time, I was watching a documentary a few weeks ago, some scientists have discovered that millions of years ago the earth was completely iced over and their theory is that what caused the ice to melt, they say that massive volcanic activty occured and the volcanic gas and CARBON MONOXIDE was released into the atmosphere and as the build up of carbon monoxide was 500 times more powerfull than todays standards. The ice, obviously over peroid of time began to melt.
I conclude in my opinion that, it is all a conspiracy theory by politicians to scare us into the thinking that the planet is dying???
Never ever trust the pricks and bitches we vote into power!!!

[Conquiztador]

This ETS tax is one of the most obvious scams that has been pulled over us. And nobody is saying a thing.

Here:
- We all pay a additional tax on all that creates Carbon Monoxide that we buy or we own.
- We then supposedly will get paid back if we plant trees or do other things that reduces this stuff.

And who is in charge of those dollars?? You guessed it...same crowd that increased the ACC to astronomical figures using so falseleading figures that even my 8yo could see it.

In the meantime a bunch of 3'rd world countries are burning more fossile fuels a day than we do in a year. And what do you think they will pay in ETS tax...

This government is sitting in the backrooms laughing at the NZ population and coming up with new money making schemes to see how much they can fool us.

[mashman]

The reaction to the yahoo pole says it all really.

But as I maintain, all we're worried about is our money and how it will and does affect our lives, not our lifestyles, our lives (we can live without stuff, but lack of money changes people). Get rid of that and so much worry/fear/hate/anger/lies/deception/greed/envy etc... dissapears.

[pete376403]

[QUOTE=Winston001;1129799918
IMHO New Zealand is too small for competing electricity generators and we would be far better off with a government operated national energy company. NZED anyone???.[/QUOTE]

So ETS should really be called the Max Tax (ie Max Bradford)

[pete376403]

This ETS tax is one of the most obvious scams that has been pulled over us. And nobody is saying a thing..

Some people are...
" The madness of the government's new carbon tax is that New Zealanders will be the only ones in the world paying for it. It will drive up the cost of living and undermine the competitiveness of New Zealand for negligible environmental gain." - Nick Smith, 2005

""The ETS is the most efficient and least-cost way to bring emissions under control, meet our international obligations and protect New Zealand's clean, green brand," - Nick Smith 2010*

'spose it depends which side of the room you are sitting on.


*Kerre Woodhams column in the Harold today

[Jantar]

It's a bit hard calling it a debate - on the one side you have scientists and on the other you have religious nut jobs, right wing extremists, a few oddball scientists and big business.

So true. Its quite enlightening when you study the IPCC reports that are supposed to represent the work of 2500 scientists, only to find that the final reports are written by less than 60 scientists, and the rest of the numbers are made up from those work is cited, whether they are scientists or not; from reviewers, whether they agre with the draft report or not; and from policy makers, who have been shown to direct what the report will say irrespective of the science. I don't quite see where religious and/or political views come into it though.

It is seen as a debate because the deniers make the most noise and don't bother wasting their time on research when they can find typos in the IPCC reports and take a few stolen emails out of context.

Whoops! It looks like you've suddenly changed your tune. Instead of debating the science it appears you've switched sides and started name calling and minimising the massive errors made the IPCC and a few highly funded researchers. I can't call them scientists because they simply dodn't follow the scientific method.

[shrub]

So true. Its quite enlightening when you study the IPCC reports that are supposed to represent the work of 2500 scientists, only to find that the final reports are written by less than 60 scientists, and the rest of the numbers are made up from those work is cited, whether they are scientists or not; from reviewers, whether they agre with the draft report or not; and from policy makers, who have been shown to direct what the report will say irrespective of the science. I don't quite see where religious and/or political views come into it though.


Whoops! It looks like you've suddenly changed your tune. Instead of debating the science it appears you've switched sides and started name calling and minimising the massive errors made the IPCC and a few highly funded researchers. I can't call them scientists because they simply dodn't follow the scientific method.

I normally wouldn't dignify a response this poorly informed with a reply, but I'm bored.

1. Where do you get the idea that the IPCC reports were the work of 60 people? Given I personally know 1 lead and 3 contributing authors, I think that there being only 57 others worldwide is a little hard to accept. So front up with an answer, and make it from a credible source, and don't waste my time with the bullshit that the Canada Free Press published by John McClean and Tom Harris. I want credible which means written by expert authors and based on solid research, not two conspiracy theory halfwits.

2. If you think me calling people who deny that climate change is man made "deniers" is name calling, then you're being very sensitive. Maybe your position isn't strong enough to cope with even the slightest challenge?

3. First, do YOU know what the scientific method is? And as far as I'm aware there were two errors in the 4th report (glaciers and dutch sea level), and both of them had absolutely no bearing on the outcomes of the report. There were 3 or 4 other issues, none of them substantial and no matter how much one wants to believe that dumping billions of tonnes of greenhouse gases in the amosphere has no effect, it would take a lot of faith to believe that they negated the work of tens of thousands of scientists. Highly skilled, dedicated and very wel resourced scientists.

And before you ask, the earth is not flat and the sun does not revolve around the earth.

[Quasievil]

I normally wouldn't dignify a response this poorly informed with a reply, but I'm bored.

1. Where do you get the idea that the IPCC reports were the work of 60 people? Given I personally know 1 lead and 3 contributing authors, I think that there being only 57 others worldwide is a little hard to accept. So front up with an answer, and make it from a credible source, and don't waste my time with the bullshit that the Canada Free Press published by John McClean and Tom Harris. I want credible which means written by expert authors and based on solid research, not two conspiracy theory halfwits.

2. If you think me calling people who deny that climate change is man made "deniers" is name calling, then you're being very sensitive. Maybe your position isn't strong enough to cope with even the slightest challenge?

3. First, do YOU know what the scientific method is? And as far as I'm aware there were two errors in the 4th report (glaciers and dutch sea level), and both of them had absolutely no bearing on the outcomes of the report. There were 3 or 4 other issues, none of them substantial and no matter how much one wants to believe that dumping billions of tonnes of greenhouse gases in the amosphere has no effect, it would take a lot of faith to believe that they negated the work of tens of thousands of scientists. Highly skilled, dedicated and very wel resourced scientists.

And before you ask, the earth is not flat and the sun does not revolve around the earth.

OH Dear another one taken hook line and sinker, Al coming for dinner tonight?

[Scuba_Steve]

[doc]

This is ETS scheme is one the biggest bullshit of all time, a conspiracy theory by politicians to scare us into the thinking that the planet is dying???
Never ever trust the pricks and bitches we vote into power!!!

I blame the Greenies, cos they bought it to the attentions of the politicians, now its not going their way. We are going to poorer like Quasi said just another rort to get more out of us, inflation will increase the levy over time. And nothing will change just more empire building. Ferk our mob could even privatise it and sell it

[shrub]

OH Dear another one taken hook line and sinker, Al coming for dinner tonight?

God no, I only have enough pies for me.

Sadly, much as I'd love to believe that climate change either isn't happening, or has nothing to do with human activity, I suffer from something called cognitive dissonance which means no matter how much I want to believe something, when all the evidence points the other way I have to follow the evidence. I'd also like to believe that mortgage rates will continue to drop, petrol will drop in price and Our Masters will drop the ACC levies and lift the open road speed limit to 120. I'd also like to believe that there is a bloke called God, and if I play nicely he'll invite me to spend forever in heaven riding any bike I want on perfect roads.

Only problem is, we live in an age of enlightenment, and we have these irritating people called scientists. I'd love to believe the right wing and religious bloggers that have created the impression that climate change isn't real, I find the scientists easier to believe. A couple of weeks ago I was having a beer with a guy who had just come back from 2 months in Antarctica. This guy has been studying his field forover 20 years here and internationally at some of the best universities on the planet and is probably the world's leading authority, so I tend to take what he says on board. When he says things like "there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that man made climate change is real and the outcome of my research is unequivocal", I listen. And he's one of thousands that say the same thing.

On the other side you have the energy industry who really don't want to see oil consumption decline, you also have big business that are scared shitless of having to pay for the mess they're making of our environment, so they fund every possible argument regardless of how spurious. They also hire some of the best PR companies on the planet to create the perception that climate change is a great big scam introduced by Al Gore to make money, or that the scientists involved play along to get funding, or that the evil greenies invented climate change to screw over the poor little guys trying to make a living and drive everyone onto benefits because that's what they want. And then we have the religious right who are terrified of the evil commie greenies gaining an influence over society and reducing the power of God by introducing evolution as an alternative to creation, so they have piled on board.

But I'm always open to an alternative position, and if anyone can find one piece of evidence I can't readily counter; then I will admit I was wrong.

[shrub]

I blame the Greenies, cos they bought it to the attentions of the politicians, now its not going their way. We are going to poorer like Quasi said just another rort to get more out of us, inflation will increase the levy over time. And nothing will change just more empire building. Ferk our mob could even privatise it and sell it

You're right! Nandor Tancoz and Rod Donald (who never really died) invented climate change so they could crush the delicate flower of international capitalism. Why, I believe they probably sabotaged the oil well in the Gulf of Mexico to break poor little BP and are right now in their secret island hideaway planning world domination. Mark my words, the day will come when we will all be bicycle riding vegans wearing hemp clothing, women will stop shaving and we'll be speaking Esperanto.

Best I stock up on steak pies.

[doc]

God no, .
I'd also like to believe that there is a bloke called God,
I'd love to believe religious bloggers greenies invented climate change
religious right who are terrified of the evil commie greenies gaining an influence over society and reducing the power of God
by introducing evolution as an alternative to creation, so they have piled on board.

But I'm always open to an alternative position, and if anyone can find one piece of evidence I can't readily counter; then I will admit I was wrong.

Edited a bit. But still looks like the ETS is a bit like religion for some