Corner braking - should I do it or not?

[CHOPPA]

Well after watching you braking well hard into turn2 yesterday, I reckon you got a pretty good grasp of it. Thats one wild style!

It gotta bit outa shape a few times into there! Where you on the marshal point??

[Goblin]

It gotta bit outa shape a few times into there! Where you on the marshal point??

Yeah, Im usually there or turn 6. You and Jason on his motard were freakin amazing! Love watching you guys get so outa shape yet so in control. Poetry in motion!

[lanci]

When I was learning to ride I'd practice braking in corners (at slow speeds) to see the effect of braking in a corner on the bike. I found that applying the front brake stood the bike up and would therefore push me wide either into the curb (right hander) or into the other lane (left hander). The rear brake on the other hand would tighten my line and pull the bike down into more lean. Being a newbie at the time I'd get to a corner with too much speed more frequently than I'd have liked and to try and get me around the corner in 1 piece I would apply a little rear brake. It seemed to work as I got around the corners... I do think that I was lucky that my Hornet's rear brake was so shit that I could never lock it despite the pressure applied as there were times I think I jumped on it a bit too hard. That said, it's generally rider ability that won't get you through a corner as most newer bikes have far more cornering capablities than that of the rider (hell, I've done some track days and still can't get me knee down..... not too important I know but it does have a bit of a pub chat BS factor)

[BMWST?]

dont know about "treadwalking" but the fact is that just the act of turning does slow you down....(and has the effect of lowering the gearing cos the diameter of the wheel leaned over is smaller than upright)

[MarkH]

Braking during a turn? Sure, done it plenty of times - more so when I was re-learning riding after a 20 year absence, MUCH less so now because I don't get it wrong entering the corner very often any more. The big problem is that cornering uses up some of your available traction so you just can't brake hard like when you are riding in a straight line, brake too hard and you will crash!

If you have to brake then don't brake too hard, if you can learn to get your entry speed more appropriate to the corner then you will be MUCH safer! If you do it right you should be able to go through the corner with constant throttle and then open the throttle during the exit as you begin to straighten up, the increase in throttle will help the bike to straighten and you will smoothly exit the corner and accelerate back to your straight line cruising speed. Learning to corner well is an important skill, give learning this skill a high priority!

[The Pastor]

when in doubt, power out.

[beyond]

Braking into and through corners is common and no problem "IF" you take into account the following:
1. You're going in to hot like in your case.
2. There is an obstacle or stock or any other impediment to normal progress.
3. You are riding hard, on the track or quicker than normal on the road.

As has been pointed out... it is called trail braking, using either the front or rear brake or both.

Ideal environment:
1. You brake well before the corner so your entry speed is correct.
2. There are no obstacles to require you to brake.
3. You aren't riding so hard that you need to brake.

The ideal is not where most people ride when out and about.

Considerations to take into account:
1. Suspension is sorted for your weight.
2. Tyre pressures are correct
3. Throttle play is correct to ensure smooth throttle control.
4. Engine is tuned so there is no popping, missing or surging.
5. You know how to counter steer: essential when corner braking. (Search for "countersteering").
6. You know how your bike handles and have a good feel for your brakes.
7.The heavier the bike the more you can brake into a corner.
8. The lighter the bike... the higher the chance of the front or rear sliding out depending on what brake you use.
9. You need lots of experience which will take time to get to the techniques below.

Technique.
1. Braking hard with the rear and front brakes will cause the rear to lose traction as the weight comes off the rear wheel which will cause the rear to slide out sideways when braking into a corner and this will cause a lowside. At this point if you snap the throttle off, the rear may regrip but grip so hard it will cause you to highside which if you have a choice is way more painful than a lowside if you don't hit anything solid.
2. Front wheel braking is the best option. You get your weight up near the tank to weight the front wheel more and gradually apply the brakes. The bike will want to stand up so you push the inside bar more to compensate and prevent the bike standing up. This is a learnt technique that you will develop 'feel' for ove time.
3. You trade off braking for grip or grip for braking in every case. Your movements need to be smooth so as not to upset the bikes geometry. The following assumes you are braking at maximum throughout the manouevere bu the percentages are the same in every case. If you go into a corner under brakes you may be starting to enter before turning at 100% braking, as you enter the corner, you must start to release braking pressure assuming you are right on the edge. Your lean angle increases slightly so ypou go to 90% braking for 10% grip. As you go deeper into the corner you get down to 80% braking/20% grip till you need maximum grip near the apex where you will now be down to no brakes and 100% grip. Violate these ratios and you will be be going off road before you know it.

Once you have apexed, you start standing the bike up and as you pass the apex you now use throttle to get 10% throttle for 90% grip and the process is reverses with throttle instead of brake. As you are nearly upright, you will be 90% throttle with 10% grip.
4. You can lean off the bike more as well to increase cornering speed without leaning further but you will be suprised how far you can lean a bike before things start to move under you.

You need to practice in safe areas, how hard you can brake in a straight line, what braking lightly through a corner will do to the way your bike handles and how to counter steer when lightly braking under corners.

Warning: shiny tar, diesel, wet roads, cow shit, gravel, dust or any other dodgy matter on the road will totally screw these ratios.

Controlled and smooth use of these techniques will get you out of the shit in almost every case except when you are being so stupid that going in way to hot for the conditions means you are totally screwed no matter how good you may be.

IF you tyres start to break free, immediately release the brake or brakes and apply more gradually once the tyres have regripped. This requires lightening reflexes as once tyres break free, they go very fast.

[MarkH]

Warning: shiny tar, diesel, wet roads, cow shit, gravel, dust or any other dodgy matter on the road will totally screw these ratios.

I would have thought that the ratios still apply regardless of the total grip, but 90% of a smaller amount of grip is going to be a smaller amount. If you call the total amount of grip on an ideal road 100 and the total amount of grip on a wet road 80 then 90% braking = 90 on a good surface or 72 on a wet road. However you look at it, on a poor surface you will have less braking available and less cornering grip - failing to take that into consideration will generally leave you sliding on your arse.

[beyond]

Correct, but normally when cornering and hitting this crap, you don't have braking or grip Usually it's both legs flailing the air and hanging on for dear life

[Katman]

I think it's important to remember that when an inexperienced rider asks a question such as the one in the original post that people avoid breaking into a recitation of a thesis on the theory of motion and it's relationship to the forces of gravity.

If things turn ugly mid-corner for a new rider they won't have a shit show of instantly recalling to mind a lot of what is written here and it's likely to all be over before they even have a chance to remember whether the answer was yes or no.

All too often in threads like this it seems that some are more intent on displaying their wealth of knowledge rather than answering the question in a manner that is most useful to the person asking the question.

Therefore, the most important advice to the OP is, while yes you can brake mid-corner it's best to slow down your corner speed while you go about gradually increasing your experience.

[Maha]

'NEVER apply breaks in a corner! You will crash if you do'

Not true, I have successfully applied breaks mid corner on a few occassions.
Dont be affraid to use your brakes at anytime.
Its how they are use that will determine the outcome.
And it all happens quicker than you can process the thought.

If I find myself in that situation, the bike is stood up, gradual but firm front brake and a tad on the rear brake...slows me down real quick.
Some will poo poo the idea of the rear brake, but once you have mastered the technique of using both front and rear, you can then use it to great effect.

[FROSTY:Me]

I think it's important to remember that when an inexperienced rider asks a question such as the one in the original post that people avoid breaking into a recitation of a thesis on the theory of motion and it's relationship to the forces of gravity.

If things turn ugly mid-corner for a new rider they won't have a shit show of instantly recalling to mind a lot of what is written here and it's likely to all be over before they even have a chance to remember whether the answer was yes or no.

All to often in threads like this it seems that some are more intent on displaying their wealth of knowledge rather than answering the question in a manner that is most useful to the person asking the question.

Therefore, the most important advice to the OP is, while yes you can brake mid-corner it's best to slow down your corner speed while you go about gradually increasing your experience.

It had to happen eventually I suppose
I agree with Katman here.
Guys lets KISS it for the poor bloke.

In my limited experience theres a whole bunch of things can be done mid corner if in the OP's situation
.
But in simple terms. 1) lean more 2)and/or stand the bike up and brake then recommit to the corner are two I'd concider using in the Op's situation.

[sugilite:Me]

I 100% agree

I think it's important to remember that when an inexperienced rider asks a question such as the one in the original post that people avoid breaking into a recitation of a thesis on the theory of motion and it's relationship to the forces of gravity.

If things turn ugly mid-corner for a new rider they won't have a shit show of instantly recalling to mind a lot of what is written here and it's likely to all be over before they even have a chance to remember whether the answer was yes or no.

All to often in threads like this it seems that some are more intent on displaying their wealth of knowledge rather than answering the question in a manner that is most useful to the person asking the question.

Therefore, the most important advice to the OP is, while yes you can brake mid-corner it's best to slow down your corner speed while you go about gradually increasing your experience.

[beyond]

I agree too. My dissertation was merely to help this guy know you can and what to expect once you begin to learn this process which is what he will want to do in time.

[XP@]

This is good advice, what the duck says about the vanishing point is good but I would add don't just look at the place where both sides of the road meet, use it for all the information it has to give:

1. If it is getting closer to you you should be slowing down or maintaining speed.
2. If it is staying in the same place you should be maintaining speed or going slower.
3. If they do not meet then the road dips - slow down.
4. if it is moving away from you then you should be going faster.

If you still need to use your anchors mid-corner then you must remember it will eat up some, if not all, of your suspention travel. Given that you are already cranked over and a bit nervous I suspect you are not aware of how much or how little clearance you have left. Will you use it all up? Keeping smooth on the gas and observing the vanishing point is probably still your best option.

Final point If you slow in the corner then who / what is behind you? If the rider behind is riding correctly then they will catch you up real fast and you will be putting them and yourself in danger.

Lots of good advice here for you. All of it, pretty much the right stuff to do.

Firstly plan your corners better, if you "find" yourself in a corner going to fast you probably weren't thinking about the corner before you got there.
Just apply good corner technique and go for it (always the best option unless you already have things grinding on the ground)
Leave the front brake alone, it does produce the wrong result compared to what you need and also if you lock it you'll definitely NOT get the result you wanted.
Use the back brake gently, it will wash off speed quite quickly and help tighten the corner for you.

Learn about that Vanishing point.... it might just save you all this drama in the future... not to mention, countersteering, corner sets etc etc.

Good to see you wanting to know how to do it better and also good to see you did the right thing and made it round.... Good stuff!!!