What happened to the 250 GP class within NZ?

[neil_cb125t]

Was there one overiding reason as to why the 250GP class disolved? understanding that its no longer globally supported..... but was it simply a cost issue - were rebuilds costing more than the machines were worth??

It is a shame not to have a class such as 250GP. It would have been a great option instead of 600s and 1000s........ am I alone on this thought?

[Maido]

you have pulled the tail of a sleeping dog haha,

The reason, I believe, wasn't cost, it was that the 4 stroke era came about and production racing was booming world wide. So the numbers dwindled until there was no longer a big enough grid to allow 250's at national level.
250's, to a certain extent were very reliable if you put in the maintanance hours to keep them up there. I had a few troubles with mine, but that is more likely to be lack of 2 stroke tuning ability. haha

[Grumph]

For a brief period the 250's boomed because there were unwanted low mileage bikes available ex Japan - then the Poms and others discovered them and the prices went up past the point where we could reasonably be interested.
To run one demands more involvement than a 4 stroke - both time and money - and it's well proven that most racers just want to turn up and ride then socialise.
The 600 fours got quicker meaning F2 became much more a 4 stroke dominated class. You could run a lightly modded 600,be very competitive, and not have to spend the hours in the workshop maintainng it - more time for a social life !
Dealer support also swung in behind the production classes which looking back was probably the decisive factor in killing off GP 250's here.

[SS90]

For a brief period the 250's boomed because there were unwanted low mileage bikes available ex Japan - then the Poms and others discovered them and the prices went up past the point where we could reasonably be interested.
To run one demands more involvement than a 4 stroke - both time and money - and it's well proven that most racers just want to turn up and ride then socialise.
The 600 fours got quicker meaning F2 became much more a 4 stroke dominated class. You could run a lightly modded 600,be very competitive, and not have to spend the hours in the workshop maintainng it - more time for a social life !
Dealer support also swung in behind the production classes which looking back was probably the decisive factor in killing off GP 250's here.

Pretty good summation, but I have to disagree on one aspect.

That of cost.

Running a 600 at the top end nowadays with some production engines having Titanium valves etc, means that full top end replacements (valves included) are needed for each season, and, let me tell you, that ain't cheap!

I recon of you added up the cost of running a 250 for a competitive year in NZ, compared to running a 600 at the same end (pushing lap records every meeting etc), I am pretty sure the 250 would be markedly cheaper, and obviously crashing a 250 is often far lets cost than a 600.

Ten years ago, it certainly was the 600 being cheaper to run, but I am not so sure now.

4 strokes are though, like you said, far far far more appealing to distributors..... particularly now that 250 gp does not even exist at a world level!

I wonder if 125's will follow?

You may laugh, but 2 strokes are not dead, not even close.

[steveyb]

As above.
Mostly the younger riders wanted to ride 600 cos that was where the real show is, so 250s ended up with older, enthusiast riders.
Then they started to lose their enthusiasm and stopped bringing them out to play, so eventually no one turned up and the class was disestablished.
There are still plenty of 250GP bikes in NZ as evidenced by the support of the new 2-stroke riders group, but many will be 1970s and 80s machines.
Most of the later model ones that were here have been sold offshore, but even so, there are still a few of those around the place.
Agreed, that it is the best step for a young rider to take after 125 or Streetstock (if they are larger of build). They really allow a rider to develop good skills and race craft.
They are still a load of fun out in the 600 class at VMCC and the Open Twin class at AMCC, so it is still possible to run them competitively, just not at NZSBK.
Unfortunately the writing is also on the wall for 125 now with the Moto3 concept being put on the table (the Yanks already have a class they call Moto3 for 250 4T singles).
But as we see, the Post Classic thing is one of the growth areas for the sport, so there will be no death of these bikes, just a hyatus perhaps.

Gotta also agree with the cost thing.
If we assume for a minute that the cost of the bike is the same as a 600 (which it could be there or thereabouts anyway for a late model one with some kit parts, as you don't need to buy a new 250 every year, but do need the latest model to make the comparison even), then the cost of running a 250 for an NZSBK season would be about:
1 x crankshaft that will last 2 seasons (even more, but let's make it 2) = approx $2k, so $1k per season.
Engine rebuild incl new gaskets, seals etc = about $500 (one can buy a total rebuild kit from the USA for $2900 landed).
2 x piston kits per meeting, (if you are really keen you can change more often, but it is not necessary with our short races) @ $250 each = $500 per meeting = $2500
Fuel (20L per meeting = 100L) Can use Avgas, but High octane fuel is best and unleaded for late model bikes @ $7.50 per L = $750
Tyres: Bridgestone or Dunlop slicks, 1 pair per meeting @ approx$500 per pair = $2500
Consumables such as chains, brakepads, sparkplugs are about half the useage as 600, 2 stroke oil is extra but only need about 5 - 10L for 5 meetings and cost depends on prices you can get, so call it around $1k total.
Total:around $8250
AND: you get to use up the pistons and tyres during the winter as they are no where near shagged.
Bearing in mind that the comparo was done for someone wanting to be at the front. It is not necessary to rebuild the engine every year unless it is getting alot of use, but always a good policy to do so.
How does that compare to a 600? Anyone?

[k14]

I think it was a combination of parts getting progressively more expensive and the time and effort that it takes to run a GP bike. I think the last year they ran at nationals we had as little as 4 bikes racing.

Sadly I can see the 125 class going this way in the next 2-3 years. Last nationals there was struggling to have 10 125's at some rounds, whereas 2-3 years ago there was up to 18-20 at some meetings.

[Grumph]

All pretty much in agreement so far... The other thing not mentioned which is required to keep a class viable is a supply of new or updated bikes which fit that class.
F3 is a prime example - no new 400 fours which were the staple that class was designed around,so the 650 4V and 750 2V twins came in.
And in my opinion, though the wish is there to keep F3 going, there's no coherent focus on what the class should be so it's in danger of becoming an expensive dead end too.

I agree with what has been said about the current cost of the 600's - they've come a long way from the first CBR600's where headwork and dailling the cams got you a vey competitive F2 bike. Those first CBR's being so good started the nails in the 250's coffin.

[quickbuck]

Hell,
I made up an answer for Neil at work yesterday.... and looks like i was on the money, sort of...

My take (a young 20 yr old in the stands) was that as the 600's came along one could get on it and be quite quick without being good....
The 250's actually required to be ridden properly.
The initial outlay for the 600 was cheaper, and lower maintenance... Well, that was initially.
Now we know, that you can spend what ever the heck you like on one!!!!

I'm with Neil, and would love to see 250GP's back at a track near me!

My idea of the Pre 96 Class (or something) could well be developed....

[steveyb]

They have the Forgotten Era (or something like that) class in Australian Post Classic racing where up to 2000 (or 1999) Honda 250s are elegible but Yamahas are more restricted due to more changes each different year.

Me and Mel Jackson have just agreed to buy a 1988 RS250 from Canada to do some post classic racing, so that is one coming back this way.
I think one might find that a bike like this, an '88 or '89 like mine is very very rare. I would hate to think how few of these Honda made.
I wonder if there is a site with that sort of information?

[Crasherfromwayback]

Quite a few nice old TZ's and RS's here...Including a nice 92 RS like my old one!

http://rmdmotors.com/

[Cleve]

As an old fella (and ex 250 racer) - I say to you other old fellas.
Move on.
2 strokes may come back - they may not ... But for now they are GONE. Moto 2 is here and its awesome. Moto 3 may end up being a class that NZ riders can also really get in to and actually have as a class here in NZ. (Moto 2 in NZ no - but maybe bring back F 2 instead of 600 SS.)

[SS90]

I think oyu will find for all us "under 40's" (who where around when the first of the fast 250 production bikes came out (RG(v's as well, TZ, NSR KR(1) etc), and you could also see the factory racers on the track during the weekend.

Many of us (myself included) raced 250 GP bikes, simply because it was the natural progression after the pimple popping teenage dreams.

I think that when we all get nostalgic, the class will come alive again, and, just like the early days of F3, be populated by un-retired racers, and, what's more, it will be a spectator popular class, simply because you will see 20 year old bikes, that are not much slower than the 600's of the day.

[Grumph]

Reply to Steveb - two 88 RS250's in ChCh to my knowledge. Last year of 18in wheels too so I'd assume your Canadian one has been changed.
The production RS250 that year was not the greatest thing - 2nd gear breaks on our tight circuits.

[fossil]

What really happened was a chick beat the guy's and they took their toys home and wouldn't play anymore.

[steveyb]

Reply to Steveb - two 88 RS250's in ChCh to my knowledge. Last year of 18in wheels too so I'd assume your Canadian one has been changed.
The production RS250 that year was not the greatest thing - 2nd gear breaks on our tight circuits.

Yeah the wheels are later issue lightweight 17"ers.
I know that one of the RS's down there is an '87 (Hoogies) and that another guy whose name escapes me now but who I hit up for a gas tank has an '88.
I think that the amount of use it will get will mitigate any gearbox issues, but we have some spares in any case.
I agree that this is all talk of nostalgia racing. Cleve, there is nothing wrong with that. Just look at how Post-classic racing around the world is growing.
Older guys who now have the money but are too old and slow to race modern racebikes but want to have a go, have a go on the old bikes they loved.
In our case it happens to be 250GP bikes, others are into tractors, oops, I mean big 4 stroke bikes, each to their own ay?

By the way, where have they gone?
National champs still strong in USA, UK, Japan. So still a relevant class it would seem.
Not everything has to be lead by the world championship.
And just to play devils advocate here, y'all know that in the heyday of the 250cc class the grids were just as big as the new Moto2 class.
My opinion is that the Moto2 class is great, the racing is hectic and the bikes attainable. It is also great to see Iannone winning cos I have spent time with him when I spent time with the Campetella Racing Team, but Toni Elias has already identified a possible flaw and there is no doubt that the class will be changed and modified in order to more separate riders of different skill levels.
And wait until the engines start to fail after too much use and Honda decide the price needs to go up.

And so on and so forth until, oh, all of a sudden there are only two or three manufacturers whose product anyone wants, and oh, all of a sudden they start charging a premium, cos that's how the market works (I think we are seeing this already and only 5 races into it). And so the teams that only finish in 20th to 40th places lose their sponsors cos Moto2 isn't new and flash anymore and "You said that this class would allow you to be at the front and give us exposure, well so much for that ay?" and so they drop out, and in 5-10 years time we are back where we started.

That is how the market works. The 250 2T bikes are only gone for two reasons:
1) Honda said so 'cos Honda is a 4T company, always has been. Only built 2T bikes cos they had to in order to compete, hence their persevering with the NR concept for so long, and
2) Cos for some business reason that I cannot fathom, Aprilia did not build customer bikes in the same way that Yamaha and Honda did and instead focussed on building ever faster and ever more expensive bikes so that eventually there were only two bikes that could ever win a race. Hence Yamaha pulled out long ago and Honda built one last bike (which I bet you anything you like was an NSR in disguise, not an RSW, or the RSW evolved back into an NSR) that could compete just to show that they could.

Don't get on my back about all of the above, but have a think about it and how the market works and how racing class rules get changed all the time and imagine how this will evolve. Cos if it doesn't, the bikes will become "production bikes" in disguise as everyone will want one and the WSBK people will bring in the lawyers.

Also, current off the shelf "Moto3" bikes e.g. Moriwaki MD250H are really not all that competitive with equally spec'd 125GP bikes. Only the Factory and Prototype bikes are competitive and there are precious few of those around. RMD has a Harc-Pro bike for sale on his website. Hate to think of the price. They will have to be 300 or 350 or even maybe 450cc to be competitive if they do not want to have to use a new engine every second meeting.

BTW,
Pic attached of Mikes '92, ex NZ champ bike (Dave Manuel) with a few new additions and a new paintjob. Now, really, who wouldn't want to have a blast on that ay?